Friends of
                        Joshua Forum

So, per some suggestions, we thought we'd add this forum so people can discuss things on off-days from Bible Study.  Or we could use it, too, to continue discussions.  Anyhow, basically you can use it however you like! 

God bless and love!
Kylie



Having a "Positive Body Image"
12-10-15, 11:42 PM
LambMommy

One of our professors took a detour from class today and talked a little about mental health.  She was especially adamant about striving to have a "positive body image" and encouraging others to feel good about themselves.  She challenged us to come up with a list of ways to do that.  It's not even really homework.  Just for "our own betterment and well-being."

So...  Anyone want to help?


12-11-15, 8:56 AM
AndrewAOD

I only need to look at the time stamps on your posts to see how much of a college student you really are, Violeta. 

I think that's a great non-homework assignment.  I know ads and various media sources can be really harmful.  That's why JenniAnn and I record whatever TV we think Belle might like and then edit out the commercials.  People need to realize how much airbrushing and Photoshopping happens.  Those people very often don't really look like that.  Trying to attain that means chasing an ideal that doesn't truly exist.

12-11-15, 4:26 PM
JenniAnn

Andrew's definitely right about ads.  A big thing for me is never commenting too much on what another person eats.  Am I a little concerned about Belle wanting sweets all the time?  Yes.  But rather than telling her it's not good for her to have sweets all the time, we make sure healthy sweets are available.  She's just as happy with an applesauce cookie as she is with a butterscotch-chocolate-marshmallow cookie.  So we make sure there are more applesauce cookies around than the latter.  When she's older, we'll explain why that's a healthier choice but, for now, she's far too little to be concerned about any of that.  I just don't want it in her head that she should feel guilty about eating.  I can remember a time in my twenties when any sort of "I can't believe you're eating that!" and "Do you know how many calories are in that?!?" comment really cut me down.  I want to keep Belle away from that for as long as possible.  Same for Shelby.  And you, too, you know!


12-12-15, 7:11 AM
IvyLee

Those are really great, thanks!  I think part of the reason our prof brought it up is she knows everyone's going to start getting inundated with the gym and diet ads on TV as soon as Christmas is over. 

One of the things I put on my list is to monitor how you talk about your own body.  Like if Violeta started bemoaning something about herself, even if I didn't want to, I'd start wondering if I had a similar "problem."  Or even a worse one.  I think it's especially important that kids don't overhear their parents talking about being fat or out of shape or whatever because then they'll wonder about themselves...


12-13-15, 9:24 PM
Eric-in-Progress

That's a really good point, Ivy.  As someone who used to struggle with body image issues, I can attest to the role parents play.  I love my parents but they were both very focused on fitness and staying thin (they're still focused on wellness... but in a much healthier way).  Chubby kid that I was, I felt like I embarrassed them.  When I started to thin out, they heaped a lot of praise on me which felt great but I think I took it the wrong way.  I became obsessive and vain.  I'm going to be very, very careful about what I say around Zany.  Especially with all the issues he overcame when he was younger, I don't want him to ever feel bad about what he eats.  That he can truly enjoy food now is a miracle!

12-14-15, 11:58 AM
LambMommy

Aww!  I'm sorry it was hard for you when you were younger, Eric!  Thank you for speaking up.  Our prof said too many people assume boys aren't impacted by all this but they are!

Zany is definitely a miracle!    (I made different colored smileys cause I got tired of yellow).


12-14-15, 2:32 PM
Caterpillar-Kylie

Violeta, you're adorable!  I like the smileys! 

Really good topic, too!  I think "body image issues" is a much bigger topic than how people feel about their looks.  I think ownership is part of it, too.  I was raised to believe my body was mostly for pleasing my eventual husband.  That probably sounds really, really old-fashioned and a lot of people would balk at it but I have to wonder if the sentiment isn't still there behind all the trends that are uncomfortable and sometimes even painful and dangerous.

And, for the record, I don't think there's anything wrong with pleasing one's husband!  I hope I do.  But when you believe that's the only reason to take care of yourself and dress up and get a cute haircut... that's not right.

12-14-15, 6:05 PM
Clay-on-the-farm

You please me very, very much, sweet Kylie.  You are beautiful to me, inside and out.  I'm really glad that you've put away those harmful beliefs.  I admire you so much for that.

To the wider issue: I never thought much about my looks growing up.  I knew I was considered handsome and I enjoyed the attention it got me... naturally.  Then it was gone.  You all know that I went through some dark times but then Joshua was there and doors opened back up for me.  Whenever people stare, I remember that He loves me and my wife loves me and I have many, many friends.  That's enough.

12-15-15, 5:23 AM
EmmaMM

You two are so cute!

Whenever I feel like I'm getting too hung up on my looks, I remember that I called the most beautiful man to ever live "ugly."  Physical beauty isn't everything...

12-15-15, 11:46 AM
LambMommy

{{{Emma}}}  Joshua understood.

12-15-15, 3:25 PM
EmmaMM

I know.  Thankfully. 

Thanks for the pretty smileys!

12-16-15, 5:08 PM
CalebtheCowboy

I think my mom always wanted a daughter.  She'd sit Edward and I down and give us the talks I think she would have given our sister had she existed.  I can remember one time I was super embarrassed because my Mom plopped a Victoria's Secret catalog down in front of the two of us and explained about Photoshopping and lighting and make-up and how we should never expect a real woman to adhere to those standards. 

Edward and I need to find girlfriends...  I think our mom would be a great mother-in-law.  So, uh, anyone know anyone?


12-17-15, 9:44 AM
Rose

{{{Caleb}}}  I'm afraid I only know pretty much the same people you do but I just know your lady's out there somewhere!  Maybe she's just not quite ready to be found.  But, when you do find her, I think she'll be really pleased that you've held onto what your Mom wisely taught you.


12-17-15, 6:12 PM
CalebtheCowboy

Thanks, Rose.  I sure hope so.

12-18-15, 7:15 PM
Sy

Greats moms think alike, I guess!  My mom did something similar although I think it was just a magazine.  She did it with Kendra and Hailey, too. 

I'll be praying for you, Caleb.


12-19-15, 9:13 AM
CalebtheCowboy

Thanks, Sy.  I appreciate it.

Sorry, girls, I didn't meant to turn this thread into

12-20-15, 8:14 AM
IvyLee

And with that, he received the text from Andrew saying that our Joshua was back!    I imagine this will close out the thread since we're all together now!!!

Santa Claus
11-28-15, 6:13 AM
JenniAnn

I hope everyone had a really great Thanksgiving and is still enjoying their leftover TLS (or the real stuff... just don't tell Adam).

So... parenting question.  How did you handle Santa with your kids?  And if you don't have kids, how did your parents handle Santa and what do you think about it now? 

Andrew and I are trying to decide how to start that tradition with Belle.  She was too young last year for it to matter but she's definitely cluing in now!


11-28-15, 7:46 AM
Peter-the-Rock

So my parents and Abuela were, I think, just a little bit addicted to the whole Santa and related thing.  We had everything.  Santa, Tooth Fairy, St. Nicholas, the Three Wisemen, Easter Bunny.  And then things got weird...  We got visited by Cupid on Valentine's Day.  He left candy.  And there was La Catrina on the Day of the Dead.  She, naturally, brought sugar skulls and also knick-knacks.  And a leprechaun brought us lucky charms on St. Patrick's Day.  The only bad part was other kids would look at us kind of funny when we mentioned visits by the last three.  And, of course, once we figured out one was Mama and Dad, the whole pantheon tumbled.  That being said, I just remember being amused.  I mean we were still Catholic enough that I firmly believed St. Nick was real and the Wisemen, of course.  And, after a certain point, a lifesized bunny or baby with a bow and arrow sneaking around your house seems kind of creepy so it wasn't traumatic to lose those. 

Actually, I think it was more traumatic for my parents and Abuela...  My only advice is, whatever you decide to do with Belle, be prepared for that inevitability.


11-28-15, 10:11 AM
EmmaMM

I still think it's so adorable that they did all of that. 


11-28-15, 3:27 PM
JenniAnn

Aww!  That is adorable!  And your advice is noted, Peter...  That will totally be me.

11-28-15, 1:23 PM
I <3 Turkeys

You're considering not doing Santa Claus with Belle?!


11-28-15, 2:05 PM
AndrewAOD

No.  Don't worry, buddy!  We're just trying to decide *how* to do Santa.  We don't want Belle getting umpteenth presents from Santa and then wondering why Santa only brought another child one gift... or no gifts.  That part's really tough.


11-29-15, 6:27 AM
Caterpillar-Kylie

Clay and I have talked about this.  So Adam and I give the kids one gift each when we do our party.  That's the only gift from Santa that our kids will get.  (Obviously we'll buy them other gifts but as Mommy and Daddy.)  Well, stocking stuffers will be from Santa because we really like the stocking tradition.  If our kids ever ask us why other kids get several presents from Santa, I think we're going to tell them that the kids' parents brought the other gifts but they must NEVER tell their friends that.  If the parents want that secret kept, we have to respect that.  We just don't want our kids growing up believing that Santa unfairly doles out gifts.


11-29-15, 11:56 AM
Zeke

That's what Diana and I did with our kids.  The stockings and one gift under the tree were from Santa.  The kids were savvy enough to realize that other families had less than us and others had more.  I think it was easier for them to understand that Mom and Dad could only buy so many gifts as opposed to trying to reason out why a man known for kindness and generosity would give one classmate 1 gift and another 10... especially if the child with less was kinder.

Of course, things unraveled when Hailey had a classmate who didn't receive any presents.  After that, our church partnered with their school and did Secret Santa to ensure that didn't happen again.

11-29-15, 10:07 PM
Hailey

I remember that.  I was pretty crushed when my friend first told me Santa missed her house.  It was actually a relief when Mom and Dad told me the truth.  I didn't like thinking Santa would neglect my friend.  But Sy and Kendra never had anything like that happen and Santa was really fun for them until they outgrew the belief.  If I ever have kids, I'd still keep Santa in our traditions!  Sure, something sad could happen but kids are going to get exposed to sad stuff eventually no matter what you do.  And that's not all bad.  I helped with the Secret Santa project after that.

12-1-15, 4:16 AM
I <3 Turkeys

I really like all these ideas and agree that it can be disheartening when "Santa" completely spoils one kid and not another.  Not to toot my own horn but... I do think there's something to be said for a gift from Santa being handed to the child from Santa.  And Mrs. Claus, of course!

So sticking with that one gift from Santa and then stocking stuffers is 100% supported by yours truly.

12-1-15, 9:02 AM
Arthur-A-Stor

Well that's all Monica and I need to make up our minds!  Santa himself has weighed in. 

We gave Liam multiple presents from Santa last year but I think he was so dazed by the entire Christmas thing that I bet he only remembers the gift Adam gave him as being an actual Santa gift.

12-2-15, 10:04 PM
AndrewAOD

Thanks to everyone who has weighed in.  JenniAnn and I are liking the one gift and stocking stuffers idea.  But we're also wondering how to respond when Belle starts questioning Santa's existence.  Thoughts?


12-3-15, 12:28 PM
IvyLee

I decided a while back that if I have kids (hopefully!) then I'm not going to lie when they start questioning.  I'm going to tell them about St. Nicholas and how he inspired parents to keep his generosity going.  I'd read that going too far in lying to kids about Santa could make them mistrust you about other things... God, chiefly.  But I guess that won't really matter with the Friends kids.  They've already hung out with God!  Still, inventing cover stories for your kids seems a little weird. 

I found out the truth because I could no longer make sense of how Santa visited *every* house with children in one night.  I'm glad my mom leveled with me instead of making something up about him stopping or reversing time or whatnot!  We had a really good talk after that about the difference between magic and miracles.

12-5-15, 3:15 PM
JenniAnn

I agree, Ivy.  My parents fessed up as soon as I started doubting.  I think it would have been worse for them to have gone to any lengths to keep the charade going only to have me ultimately find out for sure later.

And thank God for St. Nick!  The only thing that bummed me out was thinking no one was there when I talked to or wrote to Santa.  But someone was.  That he's a Turkish bishop and not a toymaker from the North Pole is and was fine by me.

12-4-15, 11:08 PM
CalebtheCowboy

SANTA!  I know him!

Sorry.  Couldn't resist. 

12-5-15, 4:37 PM
Eric-in-Progress

All right.  How many times have you watched Elf already this season?

Also, anyone have advice on how to handle Zany asking Santa for a new baby?  Eeek.

12-5-15, 11:15 PM
CalebtheCowboy

Only twice but the season is young!

And yikes...


12-6-15, 6:56 AM
I <3 Turkeys

I hate to put Joshua and the Father in a tight spot but... ultimately the baby thing is their decision.  I don't think there's anything wrong with telling Zany that a baby is beyond Santa's powers.  And there's also nothing wrong with telling him that's a decision for you and Neela to make... not Santa.

12-6-15, 4:55 PM
Eric-in-Progress

Good points!  Thanks, Santa. 

12-7-15, 5:56 PM
Gryffindor Max

When I was little, I asked a department store Santa to bring my Mom back.  God bless him, the old fellow told me that there were certain things Santa couldn't do but that he'd definitely be praying for me and my Mom.  I was disappointed but I know it did less damage than if he'd hastily promised and moved onto the next kid.

As it turns out, I did get my Mom.  Not the Mom I had in mind but I love her.  {{{Maja}}}

12-8-15, 12:47 PM
Rose

::sniffle::

So probably 2 minutes after Max posted that, JenniAnn came running into the room and mother/son cuteness ensued.

I'm totally winning the in-law game. 

Tell me something good?
11-15-15, 11:54 PM
AndrewAOD

Hey everyone.  It's been a rough few days.  I'm back home now and will be for at least a couple of days.  I thought it might be nice to focus on good things so... tell me something good?

11-16-15, 6:47 AM
JenniAnn

{{{Andrew}}}

Something good?  Well, I have a really awesome soulmate who is an equally awesome daddy to our kids.

11-16-15, 10:17 AM
AndrewAOD

{{{Laja}}}

Thanks, I have an equally wonderful soulmate and mama to our little ones (and not so little ones).


11-16-15, 4:28 PM
IvyLee

Aww.  Hugs to you both!

I have a really, really, really good boyfriend.  He went through my "yes means yes" homework with me without batting an eye lash.  A lot of people said their SOs got weirded out.  And we agreed on virtually everything!  Sy could even point out issues that I didn't see. 

This is a really sad time, though...  Let us know if there's anything we can do, Andrew.


11-16-15, 10:35 PM
LambMommy

I feel bad that I'm not going with you...  I should be.

11-17-15, 5:24 AM
AndrewAOD

No, sweetheart.  You're exactly where you need to be and that makes me happy.


11-17-15, 12:35 PM
Gryffindor Max

A couple just came into the shop and bought a slew of comic books that they're handing out to kids in the hospital.  I thought that was pretty awesome.

11-17-15, 2:17 PM
AndrewAOD

It really is.  Thanks, Max.


11-17-15, 8:42 PM
CalebtheCowboy

Uncle Randall just took in some malnourished guinea pigs that had been rescued.  It's sad that they went through that but they're in a good place now.  And very cute.  Kylie and her friend, Zadie, have been gushing since they got here.


11-18-15, 7:54 AM
Peter-the-Rock

A really nice email came in over night from someone who saw JCS here the past couple of years.  She said that to keep herself from being brought down by all the recent news, she decided to list things she was grateful for.  We're on it.  I'll forward it to everyone but wanted to mention it here.  {{{Andrew}}}


11-18-15, 2:45 PM
EmmaMM

It's a very sweet email.

This morning at the diner, someone covered the bill for a single mother and her two kids.  Her husband had just left her and she said that act of kindness gave her the hope she needed.


11-18-15, 3:17 PM
I <3 Turkeys

I think something good would be you, me, Eli, Henry, and whomever else wants to tag along having a fun night out.  What do say, buddy?  After Bible study, we could go to Adrian's or maybe even the Cafe to make it easy for everyone? 

11-18-15, 4:01 PM
AndrewAOD

I like it!  Let's do that.  Then we can continue this thread in person.  Thanks, Adam.

11-19-15, 6:03 AM
Diana

That was a wonderful time!  Thanks for the great idea, Adam.  Andrew, it was wonderful to see you smiling and laughing and having a great time.


11-19-15, 6:18 AM
AndrewAOD

Thanks, Diana.  And thank you to everyone who hung out last night and/or posted here.  It was very helpful to hear so many uplifting, true stories.  Love to you all!

AI
11-9-15, 8:12 AM
IvyLee

I have another question inspired by a class.  Violeta and I are taking an intro to philosophy course and the professor had a movie list and asked us each or in pairs, to choose a movie and then write a paper about what it tells us about self, truth, etc. and he had questions for each movie.  Violeta and I picked Ex Machina... mostly because we recognized the phrase from theatre (deus ex machina).  JenniAnn watched it with us this past weekend and I'm glad she did because... we needed a grown-up!

With the questions, we only had to answer 2 of the 4 so we skipped over this two-parter: "Would it be possible for robots to have a soul?  How would you know?"  We already turned in our papers but this is eating at us.  Anyone care to weigh in?  Please. 


11-9-15, 12:15 PM
Gryffindor Max

Wow.  That's a pretty intense movie.  Rose and I went to see it when it came out.  Tough questions.  I guess robots would have souls if God wanted them to.  As for how we'd know... I don't think we would.  I mean, other than the angels, did any of us absolutely know we had souls before we met the angels and/or Joshua?  We believed we did.  But we didn't *know.*



11-9-15, 8:23 PM
JenniAnn

So guilty pleasure alert...  I don't really like romance novels and maybe this isn't even technically one but... it's the section I found it in.  So... I love the book The Silver Metal Lover by Tanith Lee.  It's about the romance between a human girl and a robot guy.  Why I liked it so much is probably a no-brainer: mortal young woman falls in love with studly awesome immortal man who can't return her love... or can he?

Anyway, beyond the parallels to my life, what I loved about it was the robot, Silver, definitely had a soul that survived his death (turns out he wasn't immortal after all...)  There's no attempt made to explain this although there are references to God.  Silver and Jain, his girlfriend, didn't even realize it for some time.  But that's what I loved about it.  Humans had advanced so much that even procreation was highly technical.  I saw it as God saying "No matter how you choose to create life, I created the first spark of life and, so, you can never exclude me.  I will always be the Creator."

That being said, my reading was that He chose to give Silver and other robots souls.  I think, like Max said, it would have to be His choice.  As for how we would know... we wouldn't.  Think about animals.  Some people believe they have souls, others don't.  Neither can prove it.  (Okay, we can because, well, Yoktan but... most people can't).


11-9-15, 11:02 PM
LambMommy

But the robot was so callous!  I'm not sure she had a soul...


11-10-15, 5:47 AM
JenniAnn

Yes, that's true, honey.  She was callous.  But so are some humans and demons.  I have no idea whether or not the movie robot was supposed to have a soul but her being callous isn't proof either way.


11-10-15, 7:04 AM
LambMommy

True...  I didn't like the movie at all.


11-10-15, 7:19 AM
IvyLee

{{{Violeta}}}

Yeah, it kinda left me cold.  But now I want to read JenniAnn's book!


11-10-15, 5:15 PM
AndrewAOD

I'm not ashamed to say I read Silver.  I wanted to know what Laja was going on about!  I enjoyed it.  We reread it together when I was kind of laid up after Afghanistan.

I also thought Ex Machina was well done but I don't have any interest in seeing it again.  Let me know if you need to talk more about it, Violeta.


11-11-15, 6:37 AM
LambMommy

Thanks, Andrew, but I think I'd rather talk to JenniAnn about it if that's okay.


11-11-15, 8:22 PM
AndrewAOD

Of course it's okay!  I totally understand.

11-11-15, 3:26 PM
Sy

Okay...  So I watched it, too.  All I came away feeling was that poor Caleb (the movie character, not ours) really got played.  Both by the scientist and by the robot.

And I guess I got tricked, too, because I got sucked in enough to hope Caleb and Ava could run away together.  Maybe that's not a bad thing.  We were disappointed but the fact that we were angling for two people to be happy has to mean something's right with our souls, doesn't it?


11-11-15, 4:29 PM
IvyLee


Sy for the the win!  I like that!  See, Violeta, the fact that you were disappointed just means that you know what's really important and want the best for people.  It's good to be reminded of that capacity for kindness inside of us.


11-12-15, 4:52 AM
CalebtheCowboy

Well, I think you all cured me of the desire to watch it!  I saw it was free on Amazon Prime so I considered watching it but I don't want to see some guy who's my name-twin get his heart busted up!  Especially when he's a Weasley.


11-12-15, 10:17 AM
Rose

Yes!  We shall protect the Weasleys at all costs!

Fred...

11-12-15, 5:16 PM
CalebtheCowboy

::shudders::  That's a bad movie for twin brothers to watch...  The night after Edward and I saw it, I had nightmares.  I think I woke Edward up every hour... you know, just to make sure he was still alive.  After the fourth or fifth time, he growled "I'm alive, doofus, but you won't be if you wake me up again."



Brothers!

Kemara and Sean, I hope your twins are nicer than we were!  I have a feeling they will be.

Demonstrations of love
11-3-15, 11:12 PM
Peter-the-Rock

First of all...  Congratulations to Kemara and Sean and welcome to the world, Joy and Ian!  You're pretty darn cute.    And demonstrations of love yourselves, come to think of it!
 
I don't want to embarrass Emma which is why I'm letting her read this before I post it but I wanted to share something.

Every year since Jaz died, I've gone to her grave on the Day of the Dead.  My parents and Abuela came here that first year but, since then, I've gone on my own.  I was debating whether or not to go this year when Emma broached the subject.  Then she asked if I'd like her to go with me.  And I really did.  So that's what we did for part of yesterday: decorated Jaz's grave and then came home and went through a couple photo albums.  It was really healing for me and actually fun.  I've felt for a long time that Jaz and Emma would have been great friends and I feel that way even more now.

I know it must have been kind of difficult for Emma but it meant so much to me.  That sort of generosity of spirit is one of the things I love so much about her.  So on that note... what's an off-beat sort of thing that someone's done for you to demonstrate their love?


11-4-15, 4:57 AM
JenniAnn

Those babies are soooo sweet!  I admit I got a lil mushy thinking about how it doesn't seem so long ago that Belle was so tiny.  Treasure this time, Sean and Kemara!

Peter, I'm so glad you and Emma had that time together!  To answer your question: Andrew buying Yonah for me.  Sure, getting your girl livestock is totally retro but so perfect.  I love Yonah and he's way cuddlier than a ring.

And then, of course, basically everything Joshua does.


11-4-15, 5:56 PM
CalebtheCowboy

I can't wait to see those little tykes tooling around the farm.  Maybe one or both will be mutton-busters. 

Totally right about Joshua, JenniAnn!  Trying out to play yourself in a rock opera so you can spend time with your kids isn't exactly standard!


11-5-15, 8:55 AM
AndrewAOD

Laja, I'm glad you prefer Yonah to a ring.    But I'm going to say my ring.  Who would ever have thought that a couple twisted paper clips would mean so much but they do.

I got a little misty eyed myself while holding Joy and Ian.  Time really does fly.  Hopefully they'll stay cuddlebugs for a while like Belle. 


11-7-15, 6:29 AM
Diana

I'm so happy that you two could share that, Emma and Peter.  I've always told Zeke that, if something happened to me, I'd want him to find someone else in time.  Then I'd know that I'd made marriage something special if Zeke wanted to enter into it again.  I'm sure Jaz is so very happy for you both.

And I'm just so happy about our two new little Friends!  Ian and Joy, you have so much to look forward to!  And I'm looking forward to more cuddling!


11-7-15, 7:07 AM
EmmaMM

Thanks, Diana!  I really hope so.  It was really nice learning more about Jaz and, by extension, Peter.

As for my answer...  All of the scheming you all did to help me realize who Joshua really is!  I love you all so much for that!

Honorable mention definitely goes to Peter for letting me move in much sooner than most guys would probably go for. 


11-7-15, 9:17 AM
IvyLee

My answer's a little bit similar to yours, Emma.  I have to say Ivy's Village.  It wasn't quite scheming but, unbeknownst to me, Andrew, JenniAnn, Kemara, Violeta and other friends worked together to help pull me through some really bad bullying in high school.  It still means so much.

And, thus, I'm so excited that I've been able to see all of them become mommies and daddy to their little ones.  First sweet Belle and then, of course, Mary and Silly, and now Ian and Joy!  Congratulations, Kemara and Sean!!!

11-8-15, 2:14 PM
Sy

I'm so glad they were there for you like that, Ivy.  I'm going to say Joshua playing HORSE with me.  That was a huge turning point!

Kemara and Sean, Ivy and I would love to babysit.  Only fair since you babysat my baby brother!

11-4-15, 7:54 PM
ShaneWhoTeaches

Congrats to Mommy and Daddy!  You sure made a couple of cute kids! 

God love my mother!  When she first started to put together that I was gay, she asked me to watch a movie with her.  It was The Birdcage and she spent the entire movie offering running commentary on how much she loved Armand and Albert.  I came out during the end credits because 1.  I knew my mother would still love me and 2.  I was afraid that if I didn't, she'd buy some of those, ahem, "special dishes" they have in the movie and try to support me that way.  I'll stick with Fiestaware, thank you very much.


11-4-15, 9:58 PM
Caterpillar-Kylie

That story's too cute, Shane!

Joy and Ian... you're both perfectly cute!  I can't wait until I can hold you again!

Let's see...  Adam took me to the library.  It sounds so simple but I think that was the beginning of me pulling myself away from Jett.  And, because of that, I found out about Joshua and fell in love with my wonderful husband!

11-5-15, 12:14 PM
I <3 Turkeys

{{{Kylie}}}

Getting invited on a honeymoon would definitely be my answer!

Kemara and Sean, I'm so happy for you!  And I'm happy for your little ones.  They have great parents!


11-5-15, 4:09 PM
Clay-on-the-farm

I'm seconding that!  You're a beautiful family, McCallums!

As for demonstrations of love... every day, I open my lunchbox to find a sweet note and a container of graham cracker sandwiches from my lovely wife.  That's pretty special.  Oh and there's real food, too. 


11-6-15, 7:12 AM
Gryffindor Max

I think I'm going to have to second the food thing.  Well, mine's technically a drink: all the times Dad's made butterbeer for me.  And when he made me my very own ornament for the Dyeland tree (with Eliot's help).  When Maja bought me my own Christmas tree... and socks.  Also when Rose made me an awesome Gryffindor colors bestie bracelet. 

So which houses are Ian and Joy in? 


11-6-15, 10:02 AM
Rose

We should have people dress up in their house colors for our wedding!  I know Joy and Ian will look adorable no matter what houses they are!

And my answer is...  Max's rather elaborate proposal scavenger hunt.  Best ever! 

11-4-15, 8:59 PM
Sean

Hello all! Sean here....Thank you all for the good wishes, prayers, visits, offers of assistance and blooming things to brighten up Kemara's room. I don't want to hijack Peter's thread, but I thought you all might like an update on how things stand with our little family. 

Kemara's nursing both babies - or trying to. Ian's taken to it like a champ. I give him a bottle every other feeding and he gulps it down. Joy's having a harder time getting the hang of things. But we've got a great lactation consultant who's working with her every two hours, and a therapist with Early Intervention is coming by in the morning. Aside from that, the heart specialist says that Ian's ASD didn't close, but the hole is small enough that it might not effect his energy until he's old enough to start running around. So right now we just watch and wait.

Portia says Kemara and Ian can be discharged tomorrow afternoon, but they want Joy to stay until she can nurse consistently. So we're going to get one of the "hotel rooms" on the hospital grounds. We'll still spend our days in the NICU with Joy, but we'll have Ian in the room with us and be able to sleep more comfortably. Pray that our little girl figures things out and we can all four be back at Sol Mate in the near future.

Now, back to Peter's question....Kemara said that the most offbeat thing *I've* ever done to demonstrate my love was when I asked to tag along while she shopped for maternity clothes - specifically undergarments. I'll say it was certainly an eye-opening experience! And I didn't even get bored. :) For my part I think it was that weekend in June when we visited my parents. We we went fishing on the lake. I could tell Kemara was hot and uncomfortable, but she was a great sport and never complained because she knew I was having a great time. That's love right there.


11-4-15, 10:13 PM
EmmaMM

Thanks for the update Sean!  I'm glad Ian's doing so well and will be praying for Joy.  Such cuties!

11-4-15, 11:11 PM
Hailey

I'm so excited to meet Joy and Ian in person!  Cuddling photos is not the same!

11-5-15, 6:34 AM
The O'Hannas

Make sure you two get plenty of rest!  Twins are amazing but exhausting!


11-5-15, 10:34 AM
Zeke

Glad to hear you're all getting a more comfortable place!  Miss Joy, and all of you, will continue to be in our prayers!  You let us know if you'd like us to do a food run or anything.  Hospital food has gotten much better since Hailey was born but I can imagine getting tired of it!

As for Peter's question, I've been blessed by so many demonstrations of love but as far as an off-beat one... Joshua arranging my birthday party at a bowling alley that I thought was closed was pretty great.


11-5-15, 12:19 PM
LambMommy

Yay!  I'm glad you'll have your own room and will be able to have Ian with you.  I really hope Joy gets to eating really good soon because we miss having you all here!

I think my answer is people being patient with me when I said or asked things I probably shouldn't have.  I'm sometimes still not sure about what's private and what's not...

11-6-15, 9:57 AM
Arthur-A-Stor

Liam can't stop talking about his new cousins!  I hope your day's going well, Kemara and Sean and babies!

Let's see... I've been blessed with a lot of love in my life.  For my answer, I'm going to say Monica letting Liam and me move in with her.  That's probably pretty normal... but not with the timeline she had.  And, of course, now she's stuck with Conan, too.  Thanks, Monica!  I love you.

11-6-15, 5:21 PM
Monica

I love you, too, Arthur.    And Liam and wee Conan... although he isn't so wee any more.  And he's no trouble.  We've had to vacuum and sweep much less often with him around!

Peter, this is a lovely question!  I'm going to say all the times, pre-Liam and pre-food truck, when I'd come home after an assignment and Arthur would whip up the most delicious mocha latte for me even when he was quite exhausted himself. 

Speaking of exhaustion... I hope you're getting enough sleep, Kemara and Sean.  I can imagine wanting to stay awake and just peer at those sweet little bundles of joy, though.


11-7-15, 6:12 AM
Eric-in-Progress

Well, now Zany's begging for a baby brother or sister... or both.  Thanks, Ian and Joy.   

Let's see...  I'm going to say Joshua babysitting Zany so Neela and I could spend some quality time together in the beginning.  It's not very off-beat except for the fact that you usually don't get God Himself as a babysitter.  Thanks, Joshua! 


11-7-15, 4:28 PM
Owen-Tunnels

Just tell Zany that he'd be in charge of diaper duty.  That might cure him of it!  Or not...  I'll be willing to change some diapers if it means getting to spend more time with Ian and Joy.  You'll have no shortage of babysitters, Kemara and Sean!

Great question, Peter.  You know, I think I'm going to have to say the time Psyche berated me.  It was shortly after I came Below and, I'll admit, I said some nasty things about her and Andrew.  I didn't realize he was an angel and the age difference startled me and I was in a bitter, angry mood.  I expected her to stomp out and never speak to me again.  But she didn't.  She gave me a thorough dressing down and, by the time she finished, we were both crying and hugging and she's been one of my very best friends ever since.  {{{Psyche}}}  I hope, someday, I find someone who makes me even half as happy as you and Andrew make each other.


11-7-15, 8:57 PM
JenniAnn

::sniffles::  We were so young then!  And I hope so, too!

Love ya, O. 

11-7-15, 10:37 PM
Owen-Tunnels

::doing best Harrison Ford impression::

I know. 

11-8-15, 5:47 AM
JenniAnn

::rolls eyes::  Have you been watching the Star Wars trailer again?

11-8-15, 6:02 AM
Owen-Tunnels

Maybe...

Best teaching techniques
10-13-15, 4:08 PM
ShaneWhoTeaches

Hey everyone! 

So, as I mentioned at rehearsal, I've been asked to speak at my school's next staff retreat about best practices for teachers.  I have some of my own ideas and I put together a survey for my kids to take.  I also wanted to check with all of you since so many of you are teachers or students of some variety.  What are some things your favorite teachers said or did that really helped you?  Conversely, were there times when a teacher's techniques made things more difficult for you?

Thanks all!


10-14-15, 7:18 AM
Owen-Tunnels

I know it's not always possible but I really appreciate how Vincent encourages us to let the kids linger on a particular lesson that's really intrigued them.  If they get really wrapped up in, say, the Salem witch trials then he'll give that an extra day or two.  Kids should feel encouraged to really delve into what they're learning, not hurried along. 

10-14-15, 3:27 PM
JenniAnn

I think we're really spoiled, O.  I've read about all the rules and guidelines teachers Above need to follow.  I wouldn't say Vincent's lax because he definitely expects the kids to get good grades and learn a lot and learn well.  He expects us to teach at a level that will help the kids to those goals.  But he doesn't sweat the small stuff.  We have some kids who have trouble concentrating... and I have a feeling lil Belle will be one... so Vincent lets them, say, knit or braid some ribbons or draw or whatever it is they need to do to release the energy in their bodies so their minds can quiet and learn. 

Naturally, I'm going to say Vincent is my favorite teacher although Mr. Spelman... Mark... is a close second.  I think it's the passion thing like Owen said.  Both encouraged us students to really dig into what we were learning.  Vincent made everything school but in a really good way.  I think my love of books comes just as much from lolling around his chamber when I was little and watching him read and hearing him read as it does from being in his classes.

Mr. Spelman was a bit more hemmed in by school requirements.  Nonetheless, when he knew something had really grabbed you, he was great about pointing you to resources where you could learn more on your own time.  And he always checked in about how that was going.

10-14-15, 6:54 PM
IvyLee

Can I tell Mark what you wrote about him, JenniAnn?  I know he'd love it!

I love Mark, too, and often wish I'd been in Vincent's classes.  Andrew is definitely one of the best teachers I've ever had, though!  He (and Violeta, Kemara, and JenniAnn) made me feel so valued when I was feeling awfully low.  And a lot of that came from taking time away from class.  I knew they weren't just being nice because they were paid to be.  Same thing with Mrs. Hunter. 

And, of course, Joshua...


10-15-15, 5:56 AM
JenniAnn

Definitely Joshua...

And, yes, please feel free to tell Mark.  Thanks, Ivy!  I'm so glad I could be part of Ivy's Village! 


10-15-15, 7:24 AM
AndrewAOD

Thanks, Ivy!  You were a wonderful student!  And I learned from the best.  Joshua was always taking time to help people beyond what the public saw.  Still is!


10-16-15, 5:44 PM
Sy

Joshua is great about meeting people where they are and teaching them in a way that makes sense to them.  Like using basketball to teach me.  That's a great teacher!


10-17-15, 9:53 AM
Diana

That's great, Shane!  I'm sure you'll do a wonderful job!  Think you could record it for me?  I'd love to learn new techniques for reaching our kids and inspiring them!

One of my favorite teachers was Prof. Madeline in college.  She had a way of making you realize in a gentle but powerful way what the stakes are.  She told us "Be the teacher you want at the head of your child's classroom."  That's stuck with me all these years.

I think it's very important to educate one's self about learning styles.  Children all learn in very different ways and having ideas that would work for multiple types of learners is a must!


10-17-15, 11:13 AM
ShaneWhoTeaches

You bet I'll record it!  I love what your prof said and I totally agree re: learning styles.  Thanks everyone who has chimed in thus far!

10-17-15, 11:14 PM
LambMommy

Oooh, yes!  Definitely Joshua!  I asked him so many questions in the first years after I was born!  He was always patient and he never laughed.  Well, I mean, of course, he laughed!  But never at me.  Andrew's the same way. 

10-19-15, 3:58 PM
Caterpillar-Kylie

Hmm...  My best advice would be for teachers to really think about the implications of what they say... before they say it.  I'm thinking about some of the things I heard growing up, especially in Sunday school.  Like the flower thing.  It made me feel really bad about myself and I can only imagine how it made girls who had been molested feel.  So wrong!  But that teacher just smiled and rattled it off in her sing-sing voice...

I'm so glad you all are so different from her!


10-20-15, 6:42 AM
ShaneWhoTeaches

::shivers::

That's so awful, Kylie.  I'm sorry you had to listen to that.  Sometimes I'm horrified by what my kids tell me they were taught about sex and gender roles.  Honestly, people...  Use your heads and hearts!  God gave them to you for a reason!

That's not directed to anyone here, of course!  Just my little rant for the day!

Religions and marriage
10-5-15, 12:11 PM
LambMommy

Hi!  I have another question related to my classes.  Our Theology class is doing an overview of Catholic sacraments and today's class was on marriage.  The professor asked if we thought two people needed to be the same religion to have a solid marriage.  Everyone started citing examples of couples they knew who had the same religion but a terrible marriage, ones who shared the religion and had an awesome marriage, ones who didn't and had a great marriage, and ones who had different religions and it just got ugly.  So really we decided that we didn't know.  But some people got really insistent on their particular stance.  And I don't know what to write.  I don't know anything about marriage and definitely won't be getting married!

What do you all think?  


10-5-15, 2:19 PM
JenniAnn

I think it depends on the couple, Violeta.  And I also think it sometimes depends on what religions we're talking about.  If I'd been going to get married, I think I could have married a Jewish man because we'd still have a lot in common.  But I don't think I would have fared well with, say, a Buddhist.  But there are likely perfectly happy Catholic/Buddhist marriages out there.  And I think it could happen that two people might be of different religions and yet very much agree on the most important aspects.  Say, God is love and we should love and respect each other always.  Meanwhile, another couple could both be Christian but if one believes God is love and the other believes God is harsh and judgmental, that marriage may fall apart.

For most of the time I've known Andrew, I've not 100% known what his relationship to Jesus was.  As a Christian, I believed Jesus was his Creator and King.  I knew Andrew respected Him but whether that was as King or just a moral, righteous man... I only had personal belief.  We didn't talk about it because I knew he wasn't allowed to just tell me whether certain doctrines are true or not.  We've definitely become closer now that I know we both believe the same about Joshua and I'm so grateful that Joshua gave us the ability to speak freely with each other about Him.  But when I think back on when Andrew returned from Afghanistan and when we were spending time with Chava and when we found Belle... all when I had yet to meet Joshua... I can't dismiss that.  We were very, very close then, too.  But I guess that's not quite the same thing because we really did believe the same thing... I just didn't know we did.

10-5-15, 4:36 PM
AndrewAOD

I think you hit on something really important, Laja.  I think more than whether or not we agreed, it was the communication that was key.  I felt so much closer to you after I told you about what Joshua's place in my life was and is.  Maybe, more than whether or not we agreed, it was feeling comfortable talking with each other about our beliefs that mattered most.  If we were both human and you were Christian and I was Jewish but we both allowed each other to speak freely without feeling like we were being preached at or our own beliefs were being belittled, I think we could have had a very happy marriage.


10-6-15, 6:21 AM
IvyLee

Some people brought up marriage between denominations, too.  I was surprised by how many people thought that was a big deal.  I mean the majority of the class didn't but there were more people in opposition than I would have guessed.  Maybe it depends on how strictly observant someone's family is.

As for me, I have every intention of marrying a non-Catholic. 


10-6-15, 12:11 PM
Hailey

Anyone in particular, Ivy?

10-6-15, 12:24 PM
IvyLee

Oh, just some guy.  You might know him.


10-6-15, 12:52 PM
Hailey

Kinda think I may have shared a womb with him.  Not at the same time, of course.  He moved in not long after I left.

This is fun! 


10-6-15, 3:14 PM
Sy

SMH.  Cute.  Very cute. 

I plan to marry a non-Baptist even though she does like to scheme with my big sister.  Does that help, Violeta?


10-6-15, 4:54 PM
LambMommy

::giggling::  Yep! 

Well, kinda...  Why do you think it'll work?  Sorry if that's too personal.  And I'm not doubting!  I just don't know how to put it into words.

10-6-15, 5:28 PM
Sy

I know.  You're the one who got us to dance that first time, after all!

I think part of it is because we're Friends first and then Catholic and Baptist second.  All the denominational differences kind of just fade away.  I mean, sure, the Pope's a bigger deal to Ivy than he is to me but when we both love Joshua so much and can talk about him so easily with each other, why get hung up on the Pope? 

It's kind of like basketball, actually.  Maybe I love the Bulls and someone else loves the Lakers.  We could fight over which team was better but then we'd miss out on talking about the pure love of the game.

10-6-15, 6:10 PM
IvyLee

I'll be serious now! 

Sy's right.  And I love the basketball analogy!  {{{Sy}}}

I think it's a matter of keeping the focus on the right place.  If I was so set on practicing my faith in a particular way and thought that was *the* way then I probably would have a really hard time marrying someone from a different denomination and definitely from a different religion.  But Christianity is about Christ... Joshua.

Sy and I agree very much about Joshua.  Not being together because of divergent feelings on sacraments or church governance would be silly when we share the most important beliefs.


10-7-15, 4:47 AM
Clay-on-the-farm

I also love that basketball analogy, Sy!  Great way to think of it.

As for Kylie and me, she'd been attending at interdenominational church and, while I've always been Christian, I'd fallen away from going to church.  I appreciated having someone to encourage me to return to regular church attendance. 

Now we go to the Romanos' Presbyterian church so that was new to both of us but just felt right.

I do think it would have been hard for me to be with anyone who didn't believe Jesus was God after meeting Joshua.  I don't think I could stop talking about him.  But that doesn't mean I don't think it could work for someone else.


10-7-15, 7:03 AM
Diana

Gotta love my babies and you, sweet Ivy

Clay, my experience was a lot like yours.  I was born and raised Baptist and while I retained my beliefs, I fell away from going to church and being involved.  And then I met Zeke... 

I have a lot of empathy for the "spiritual, not religious" crowd because I do sometimes get very sick of the church politics and gossip and just want to focus on God.  But then I also think about all the people who brought us food after Manny was born and, before that, prayed with me when Zeke and I found out we couldn't have any more kids (or so the doctors thought!) 

Maybe that's another part of it, too.  If one half of a couple doesn't believe the same but feels comfortable attending religious functions and supports their spouse in that, I think that couple would last.  Ivy, I love that sometimes you attend church with us and I think Sy's been very moved when he attends Mass with you.  I know I have and I don't think it's just because of Fr. Mike although he's certainly amazing.


10-7-15, 2:54 PM
IvyLee

{{{Diana}}}  Thank you!  Both have meant so much to me!  Fr. Mike really is amazing but I love hearing Zeke preach, too!


10-7-15, 4:02 PM
Zeke

Thank you, Ivy!  Always a blessing to have you there!

This is a great thread, Violeta!

10-6-15, 7:21 PM
Kemara

I don't know if I've ever elaborated on my family and religion, but we're interesting. We have Jews, Protestants, Hindus and one Catholic (me) in my family (aunts, uncles and cousins). Some of those are mixed marriages (one between Jew and Christian and one between Hindu and Christian). We've always been really respectful of each other's beliefs. We all celebrated Christmas by giving each other gifts and at family dinners my dad (a Protestant) would say grace. Everyone would bow their heads and say "amen". So when I decided to become Catholic it didn't cause any problems really, and it's been interesting learning about other beliefs. Ivy and Sy, I'm sure you guys will do just fine!


10-6-15, 10:12 PM
IvyLee

Thanks, Kemara!  That's really cool about your family!


10-7-15, 6:48 AM
Sy

I'm sure, too.  Especially since we have so much support from friends and family.  Thank you, Kemara!

10-7-15, 9:54 PM
LambMommy

Thanks everyone who has posted!  I had to turn in my essay but would still love to hear more about what people think!

For my answer, I got to thinking about how it was when I first started going to church with JenniAnn.  She's always been really good about explaining things to me and not making me feel uncomfortable about asking questions.  I don't worry that she's gonna be offended.  And the same thing with Rabbi Yakov and Tiva when I don't understand parts of the service at the synagogue.  Maybe that's an important piece, too?  Maybe intermarriages will work if both people are patient and willing to answer questions.


10-8-15, 8:22 AM
Owen-Tunnels

I'm glad you got your homework in, Violeta, and I'm sorry that I didn't see this before but did you happen to talk to Behnam and Isra about it?  I think they'd probably have very interesting points of view since they started out as the same religion and then Isra converted.  Sure seems like a strong marriage to me!


10-8-15, 12:21 PM
LambMommy

Yes, I did!  We had a study group at Cora's and, actually, a few of us talked to Isra and Behnam about this.  They were great! 

10-9-15, 5:42 AM
CalebtheCowboy

Something I wonder about is how it'll be if I actually find a young lady willing to put up with me.  I think it might be hard to be real close with someone and not be able to tell them about Joshua... 

10-9-15, 8:32 AM
Peter-the-Rock

It was difficult for me to not tell Emma about Joshua.  Thankfully, she came to recognize him.  Don't you think it might be the same with your lady, Caleb?  If history tells us anything, Joshua will be stopping by for weddings and holidays and so on.  She'll have chances to meet him.

10-9-15, 3:07 PM
EmmaMM

{{{Peter}}} 

I think he makes a good point, Caleb.  Whoever is out there for you, Joshua already knows who she is and I'm sure he'll give her every opportunity to know who he is.  Just like he did with all of us.

10-10-15, 9:07 AM
CalebtheCowboy

I'm sure you're both right.  Thanks!


Halloween costumes?
9-25-15, 3:15 PM
JenniAnn
 
So... gotta ask... what's everyone dressing up as for Halloween?!

I've been a bit bummed this year with the plethora of "sexy -----" costumes but my lovely angel has agreed to dress up as a frog so I can be a (romantic but not sexy) princess and kiss him.    I'm not sure if it was that or the idea of basically wearing a comfy green sweatsuit that convinced him.  And we'll have two adorable fairy princess sisters with us!

9-25-15, 5:23 PM
LambMommy

Ooh!  I'm being Little Bo Peep!  Already have my lambs!


9-25-15, 7:56 PM
IvyLee

And you'll be adorable!

Sy has agreed to dress up in Anne of Green Gables era clothes with me.  He looks so cute in his suspenders and newsboy cap!


9-26-15, 8:06 AM
Diana

He so does!  You two are just precious! 

9-26-15, 11:14 AM
Sy

::blushes::

9-26-15, 1:45 PM
Hailey

Haha! 

Since Joccy and Zoe will be in town, Kendra and I have decided to dress up as the March sisters with them.  I'm being Meg since I'm the oldest.  Emma found some costumes we can use in St. G's backroom so it's college student-friendly cost wise!

9-26-15, 3:17 PM
EmmaMM

You'll all look so pretty and cute and that sounds like so much fun! 

Peter's being Zorro so I'm going to be his wife... not only because I'm gonna be Peter's wife for real but also because Abuela is making me a really pretty costume like one Catherine Zeta-Jones wears in the movie.  So excited!


9-27-15, 8:17 AM
Peter-the-Rock

How does everyone want to do Halloween?  I'm open to anything but we do have two shows that day.


9-27-15, 10:32 AM
AndrewAOD

Laja and I were talking about that.  We usually have a bonfire in Dyeland and I know it'd disappoint the kids if we don't do that.  So what if we had our own trick-or-treating thing at St. Genesius' between the two shows?  We can wear our show costumes or our Halloween ones.  It'd be a great way to still involve some of our patrons with small children who maybe aren't attending Camelot but who we want to be sure stay connected.  Then maybe on Monday or Tuesday night, we can do the bonfire in the Fields of Gold?  What do people think?

9-27-15, 3:25 PM
Caterpillar-Kylie

I think that's a great idea!  It'd be so fun to see all the little ones in costume!  And I know parents always love having a safe environment for Halloween festivities.  We could maybe do a few little games/activities, too.  Like cookie decorating or making ghosts/creatures out of lollipops. 

Oh and Clay, Adam, and I are dressing up Woody, Buzz Lightyear, and Jessie. 

9-27-15, 10:21 PM
ShaneWhoTeaches

Very nice!  I agreed to be John Adams for a play at school so I think I'm going to reuse the costume for our party.  I have a lot of Halloween craft supplies and the like.  I bet Diana does, too.

9-28-15, 4:14 PM
Diana

You bet I do!  We'll talk at rehearsal about what we can bring.

Manny, Zeke, and I are going for a sock hop vibe.  Manny looks so cute in his tiny "leather" jacket!  Zeke looks pretty cute, too. 


9-28-15, 4:42 PM
Zeke

Well, thank you, my supermurgitroid wife.

I love the Halloween ideas!  Once we have something set in stone, I'd love to invite the kids from church.

9-29-15, 5:49 AM
EmmaMM

This sounds so much fun!  I'm excited!  And, yes, we'll definitely have to get word out to the churches, schools, shelters, etc. that we're associated with!

Another thing we could do is have a candy drive for the troops.  I mean, sure, we'll hand out candy to the kids but we could also ask people to bring a bag to donate if they can.  No chocolate, though.  I was reading up on this and they can't ship chocolate.  Cause of melting, I'd guess.


9-29-15, 12:06 PM
Gryffindor Max

I'd really love to have us do that, Emma.  I was on the receiving end of donated candy while in Afghanistan and it meant a lot to us.


9-29-15, 3:19 PM
Clay-on-the-farm

Same here but in Iraq.  Definitely brightened our days.  Thanks, Emma, for bring it up.


9-30-15, 10:47 AM
EmmaMM

You bet!  We'll for sure do that. 

10-1-15, 10:14 AM
Rose

Since Max didn't say...  We're going as Remus Lupin and Nymphadora Tonks.  I just want to dye my hair fun colors!


10-1-15, 4:56 PM
Monica

Liam hasn't quite decided yet but I'm working on getting Arthur to wear a kilt.    I would, of course, wear a dress to match.


10-2-15, 8:12 AM
Sean

Kemara and I are keeping our costumes a secret, but I must say I'm surprised at the amount of controversy such a fun holiday has created in our marriage. I suggested that we go as "Buns in the Oven" with myself as the Baker. For some reason, my lovely wife was highly offended by the logical proposal. A leprechaun and pot of gold didn't work either...Anyway, we've finally agreed on something which shall be revealed on the day. Anyone want to guess?


10-3-15, 6:15 AM
JenniAnn

Hmm...  Are you following in the grand tradition of milk man and pregnant house wife? 

10-3-15, 7:12 AM
AndrewAOD

A can of Prego and an Italian chef?  I've seen it done!  But I'm guessing that's out if the baker and oven are?

Opening Up Bible Study
9-15-15, 7:56 AM
AndrewAOD

Hey everyone, I know some of us talked about this but I wanted to be sure everyone had a chance to weigh in. 

We're considering regularly inviting Eilish and the Al-Mitras to Bible study.  The drawback is we'd all have to be careful in how we talk about Joshua since they're all under the impression he's just a friend of ours who playing Jesus in Superstar before Peter did.  But we can imagine a whole lot of upsides.  We don't want anyone to feel less... free in the Bible study, though. 

Thoughts?  We've also set up an anonymous comment box in the Blue Room if you want to weigh in that way.


9-15-15, 12:18 PM
Caterpillar-Kylie

Like I told you and JenniAnn, I think it's a great idea, Andrew.  I can't imagine that Joshua intended for us to just keep preaching to ourselves.  We know the truth.  Well, some of it!  Why not help others out?


9-15-15, 2:54 PM
EmmaMM

I second that!  And, with Camelot going now, we could always discuss anything related to Joshua during rehearsals or before or after when it's just us.


9-15-15, 5:47 PM
The O'Hannas

Exactly.  And those of us who aren't at St. G's every night you rehearse could always make the trip if there's something to discuss.  I haven't really talked much with Eilish but Isra, Behnam, and the kids are great.  I'd love to include them.  ~Brittony (seconded by Eliot) 

9-16-15, 4:45 AM
Clay-on-the-farm

I'd really like to see that happen.  Behnam and I have talked a little about Afghanistan.  I think about how much this group has helped me deal with the external and internal scars of my time in Iraq.  I'd hate to keep that from him and his family.

9-16-15, 8:47 AM
Arthur-A-Stor

Good point, Clay.  And who knows that this wouldn't be a step towards their learning who Joshua is?  I hope he visits again soon.  When he does, I think they'll find it easier to bond with him if 1. They're hearing about Jesus' love and 2.  They hear us talking about our good friend.


9-16-15, 10:10 AM
Peter-the-Rock

Another good point.  Think about how we were all kind of like a chain reaction in discovering who Joshua was.  I vote yes!


9-16-15, 5:36 PM
Monica

As do I!  I think it would also be good for Samuel to have more people to talk to... if he wants.  To at least know he had the invitation would be nice.  And good for Eilish to see him talk about God with others around.

9-17-15, 6:42 AM
Zeke

Diana and I love this idea!  The more the merrier!  Plus, we'd still have this forum to talk openly.  They wouldn't have access to this, would they?  It's not that I'd want to deprive them but I'm not sure learning about Joshua's identity on an Internet forum is the best way.

Also, happy birthday to Arthur! 

9-17-15, 7:04 AM
JenniAnn

Oops!  Andrew, Kylie, and I already discussed that but forgot to include it above.  No access to the forum for exactly the reasons you stated, Zeke. 

Happy birthday, Arthur!

9-17-15, 4:21 PM
Sy

I love this idea, too.  Behnam and Isra have hosted a couple of study groups at Cora's place since Ivy and Violeta can't exactly take their classmates to Dyeland.  My girlfriend kindly includes me despite my lowly high school status. 
  So I've seen how much the Al-Mitras love learning and encouraging learning.  I think the Bible study would be great for them!

All the best to you, Arthur!

9-17-15, 5:18 PM
IvyLee

The lowly high schooler is right.  Ha!  Sy, you dwarf half the guys in the study group.  You're right about Isra and Behnam, though.  And I think it'd be really good for Eilish.  She's quiet so maybe wouldn't feel like speaking up at first but think of how good it'll be for her to see us respectfully and affectionately talking with each other even when we disagree.

Hugs, Arthur!

9-17-15, 9:47 PM
Arthur-A-Stor

Thanks, everyone.  I was thoroughly spoiled. 

9-18-15, 7:03 AM
Eric-in-Progress

Well, I'll be the selfish one.  And, no, I'm not against adding onto the Bible study.  Great idea!

But I think we should all really warm up to Behnam and Isra.  Have you heard them sing???  Neela and I were right by them at Tiva's birthday soiree and they sounded great!  Ayah and Fakir in The Secret Garden, anyone?  I know they're not Indian but I think casting them would be a lot more PC than casting any of us.


9-18-15, 9:51 PM
EmmaMM

Very, very good point...  Isra seemed very interested in St. G's.  Of course, we wouldn't push them if being in the show would make them uncomfortable. 

Now I want to hear them sing for myself!

9-19-15, 10:02 PM
Owen-Tunnels

I mentioned this to Vincent.  He said he thinks it's definitely worth asking them when the time comes.  Apparently they love watching musicals on AMC or TCM or one of those channels.  Also, totally for the more inclusive Bible study.

9-21-15, 1:42 AM
CalebtheCowboy

Awesome birthday party, Andrew! 

Sorry I didn't weigh in before.  I hadn't talked much with the newbies but did tonight.  Love them!  Let's do this.

9-21-15, 2:54 AM
LambMommy

Yay!  Someone else is up, too!  And everyone agrees.

9-21-15, 6:18 AM
ShaneWhoTeaches

Wasn't that a school night for you, young lady?

Oh and I wholeheartedly support this idea.

9-21-15, 9:02 AM
IvyLee

It was, yes...  Pouring coffee into her right now.  We have a test today!

9-21-15, 3:17 PM
Rose

{{{Violeta and Ivy}}}  I know the feeling.  Sorry Max and I have been slow pokes on this.  We both vote yes!

9-21-15, 4:06 PM
AndrewAOD

Great!  We heard from everyone either here or through the box or in person so we'll make the standing invitation!

Great to see everyone last night!  Thank you for making it a great birthday!

Evolution
9-9-15, 7:54 PM
LambMommy

Hi everyone!

I hope it's okay to post here when I have questions about my classes.  I talked to Ivy about this and she thought it would be a good idea.

Today in our natural sciences class, the professor was talking about Darwin and evolution and one girl got really upset because Fordham's a Christian school (Catholic specifically) and she didn't think he should be teaching that.  But then a bunch of the other kids seemed to think it was weird that she had an issue with evolution and didn't see how she couldn't believe evolution happened AND believe in Christianity.  People were polite but it was kinda tense.

I have no idea how God created Earth.  Now I feel silly about never having asked but I'm not sure He would have told me.  I've definitely read Genesis but I guess I didn't realize you *had* to take it all literally in some people's minds.  I mean Joshua tells stories all the time.  Why wouldn't he have back then?  And JenniAnn believes evolution happened and she definitely believes in Joshua... even before she met him.  I hope it was okay to put that but I thought you brought it up once in Bible study, JenniAnn.  You said you'd watched a movie about Darwin (which you wouldn't let me watch, by the way). 

Anyway, can someone explain why people got upset?


9-9-15, 8:02 PM
JenniAnn

Okay, first of all, yes.  I do believe evolution happened and it was fine to say that.  Second, the movie is called Creation and, the last time I watched it, I just didn't feel you were mature enough, hon.  But I promise that if you want to watch it sometime, I will watch it with you because you've grown up so much!

As for why evolution upsets some people, I think they think it somehow makes us less special if it's true.  Because evolution would mean that humans came from a common ancestor to apes and really aren't our own separate act of creation.  But I think there are so many different ways to look at it.  I believe that God created all the living beings on Earth knowing exactly what and who they would lead to.  So, for example, I believe that when God created that very first atom, He already knew how it would reproduce and grow so that eventually each individual human would be born.  So Belle was in His mind and heart.  Ivy was in His mind and heart.  Every last human being ever was in His mind and heart.  There's not a single one of us who are born and make Him think "Oops... didn't intend for that one!"  We are all intentional.  So, to me, evolution doesn't take away any majesty or love from creation.  If anything, I'm more in awe of creation as I think of God planning things out to such intricate detail that a protozoa could lead to humans.

For what it's worth, I believe Adam and Eve were the first humans to evolve to the point that they could truly conceive of God and communicate with Him. 


9-9-15, 8:18 PM
I <3 Turkeys

Well stated, JenniAnn. 

I do happen to know how Earth and humanity were created but I'm keeping that to myself.    I will concur with JenniAnn that every living being is wholly intended and loved by God. 

The reason I sometimes get upset when this topic arises is, inevitably, someone will cry foul and say evolution goes against the idea of humanity's #1 place as God's masterpiece.  Thing of it is... I thought us angels were God's masterpieces.  And humans, too!  Don't get me wrong there!  I only mean that everything God creates is a masterpiece and I don't entirely understand the need to be the most masterful masterpiece.  He has enough love for everyone!


9-10-15, 7:53 AM
Zeke

I'll cop to once being one of those people.  And, to be honest with you all, it wasn't until we all met up that I really changed my mind.  I believed humanity was the apex of God's creation.  And then I met all you angels and saw Joshua with you...  I have no doubt that the Lord's love is equally with you.  And then I saw Joshua with the dogs and the donkeys and so on...  And you know what?  I think He loves them equally, too.  Because His love is limitless so why would He limit it for some?  Especially when humans, angels, dogs, and donkeys clearly all crave His love?

I still believe He created the world in 6 days.  I don't know how long those days were.  But I know Joshua loves me and I know He loves JenniAnn.  Further, I know JenniAnn and I both love Joshua.  What we believe about how the world was created isn't gonna save us.  Joshua is.  And He has. 

I did have something of an epiphany when I was watching Joshua carve one day.  Even now, with all his power, Joshua's work evolves.  The block becomes a blob and then wings appear and then the body is defined then the legs and the tail feathers, the beak, the mouth, and, finally, the eyes.  And he's so intent and involved the whole time.  If evolution is how it happened, I believe with all my heart that God was intentional and involved is every minute detail.  Watching Joshua carve, I understood how, for JenniAnn and others, there's no contradiction.

9-9-15, 9:22 PM
Kemara

Violeta, I know you've got a ton of reading to do right now, but there's a great book called, "A Short History of Nearly Everything". It's pretty much a history of the earth and the universe and how we know what we know and why. It's a fascinating read that covers many different sciences.

Anyway, at the very beginning the author says something which - as a human (and I supposed the same is true of you angels when you're in human form) - just blows my mind: "It is a slightly arresting notion that if you were to pick yourself apart with tweezers, one atom at a time, you would produce a mound of fine atomic dust, none of which had ever been alive but all of which had once been you.”

Doesn't that just give you a little shiver? Now, you can't tell me all those bits of atomic dust just on a whim decided to coalesce and create things. Something - Someone - got it all going. And at the same time, the record is pretty clear that humans have evolved over the eons. So I'm with JenniAnn that Creation got things started and Evolution got us where we are now.

To me, the real question isn't, "What were we?" but, "What will be become?"


Introducing the cast of St. Genesius' Camelot!
9-4-15, 4:54 PM
EmmaMM

Hi everyone!  Most of you know all this but I thought I'd post it for those who weren't able to be with us the past couple days.

Arthur- Eric
Lancelot-Peter
Guenevere- Emma
Merlin-Adam
Nimue-Kylie
Pellinore-Zeke
Tom-Liam
Mordred-Caleb
Lords and Ladies: Andrew, JenniAnn, Sean, Kemara, Arthur, Monica, Max, Rose, Edward, Shane  (we'll assign character names later on)

I'm so excited and so is Peter!  This is going to be a really big one as far as technical elements so BIG thanks to Owen, Crystal, Brittony, Cira, Eliot, Tim, Gloria, Jeff, Tyson, Neela, and Diana who have decided to stay offstage this time and will be helping with makeup, costumes, sets, lighting, and so on. 

HUGE thanks to Joshua who has agreed to let us use the angelic orchestra and thanks to Tess and Gabe for organizing them!

And to a certain two individuals who weren't so sure about being onstage...  I think you'll have so much fun!  I can't wait to see you dancing with Andrew and Arthur during "The Lusty Month of May."  And, yes, I just outted you two. 

Oh and we'd love to have the "littles" sing for "Follow Me" but we realize having them show up every night would be overly taxing.  So we'd really like to maybe record something?  I thought that might be nice, too, because then we could involve Doug's grandkids and the kids at Lily's Loot.  More details on that later!

See you all soon!

9-4-15, 5:12 PM
Kemara

So excited! This is one of my favorite musicals. Emma, I think you could give Julie Andrews a run for her money any day. :) I probably should've bowed out for this one considering I'll be as big as a barn, but I just couldn't. And Sean's looking forward do doing some sword fighting. Joshua help us!


9-5-15, 6:48 AM
Arthur-A-Stor

Monica and I are so proud of our boy and looking forward to seeing him make his stage debut! Way to go Liam! I also can't wait to hear my angel's stories of the Middle Ages. I'm sure they'll add an extra layer of authenticity to the production.

9-5-15, 8:10 AM
Peter-the-Rock

Your Liam's a very talented little fellow! 

I'm sure Monica's going to have a lot of great insight.  And "Merlin" and our esteemed director, too!

9-5-15, 8:14 AM
LambMommy

I'm going to miss being part of the show but I think I need to focus on settling into college life.  I'll definitely be in the audience, though!  I want to see everyone in their fancy costumes!


9-5-15, 10:26 AM
Monica

We understand, Violeta! 

Emma, I'm nervous but Arthur's brought me around to the idea.  I truly am looking forward to helping with the fancy costumes.


9-6-15, 3:42 PM
CalebtheCowboy

Hey Eric, since you're my dad now, my old old man told me I should ask you for $25 so I can go to the movies.  So....  Am I getting my money?


9-6-15, 4:03 PM
Eric-in-Progress


No, you little brat.    Not until you've apologized to your stepmother for trying to get her burned at the stake.

9-6-15, 4:47 PM
CalebtheCowboy

Sorry, Emma...


9-6-15, 5:14 PM
EmmaMM

You're forgiven.  Eric, pay up. 


9-7-15, 7:05 AM
Peter-the-Rock

So this will be how it is for two months, huh? 

9-7-15, 8:11 AM
CalebtheCowboy

Yep! 

Really, though...  I'm not sure about pulling off that level of being terrible.  I mean, sure, I've played a Roman but that character's not very developed.  I don't have to sing about being evil.

9-7-15, 9:18 AM
Caterpillar-Kylie

{{{Caleb}}}  You'll do just fine, Caleb!  And we'll still love you even when you try to destroy everything.

9-7-15, 10:14 AM
I <3 Turkeys

What Kylie said.  Caleb, I know it's daunting.  I didn't want to play Pilate because... well, it's pretty obvious why.  And Eli and Henry weren't too keen on playing Caiaphas and Annas.  But we all focused on the bigger theme of the show.  Camelot has a great theme, too.  And we'll all get to spend time together which is the best part.

9-7-15, 11:14 AM
AndrewAOD

Caleb, you're gonna do great.  Everyone is!  I'm really looking forward to doing this show with all of you!  Including my lovely stage-wife.
 

9-7-15, 11:18 AM
JenniAnn

  I'm starting to feel a bit better about that...  It helped when Monica showed me her costume designs. 

9-6-15, 7:58 PM
Diana

While I'll miss dancing, I'm really looking forward to being able to sit back and watch you all!  Manny loves music so he'll be in heaven!

Zeke, I'm also looking forward to turning you into an old man. 

9-7-15, 6:45 AM
Zeke

Sure you're ready to get a glimpse of your future husband?

9-7-15, 7:14 AM
Diana

You'll still be as handsome as ever!


9-7-15, 7:21 AM
Sy

Ugh.

Just kidding!

9-7-15, 7:32 AM
Zeke

You better be!    Now get off the phone and come get your breakfast before it gets cold.

9-7-15, 8:18 AM
IvyLee

My fault!  Sorry!

9-7-15, 8:34 AM
Zeke

Ah...  Well, that's okay then.  Young love...   

To our collegebound girls...
8-28-15, 7:45 PM
Zeke

Well...  Diana and I just got back from getting our baby girl settled into her college dorm.  Tomorrow morning Hailey's going to start her orientation and on Monday she'll start classes.  It's feeling very bittersweet for us all.

I wanted to start a thread to post our well wishes to our three university girls: Hailey, Ivy, and Violeta.  If you've thought of any advice since Violeta asked back in May, please share.

Girls, we'll be praying that you grow in wisdom, faith, and love as you embark on this adventure.

Love,
Daddy/Zeke

PS- I'm going to go snuggle with Manny now.  They grow up so quickly...  Hug your kids, parents.  Kids, consider yourselves hugged.

8-28-15, 8:34 PM
Sy

Poor Dad and Mom! 

Love you, sis.  I hope you're having a good first night in Connecticut.

Ivy and Violeta, I hope your first day goes really well.  Sunday, right?

8-28-15, 9:14 PM
IvyLee

Yep!  We're getting very, very excited!  Violeta is bouncing all over the place which is making it kind of difficult for JenniAnn to help her get her "fun hair."

Enjoy, Hailey!  {{{Zeke and Diana}}}


8-28-15, 10:19 PM
LambMommy

Oh hush!    JenniAnn said she got in her exercise that way so it turned out well.  Multi-tasking!  We've got to get really good at that.

Have fun, Hailey!  Let us know how it is!

8-29-15, 2:14 PM
I <3 Turkeys

Enjoy every moment of it, girls!  Okay, maybe not the exams.  But, hey, even those can be fun sometimes.  Learn all you can!

8-29-15, 3:42 PM
CalebtheCowboy

Don't give up!  I spent too long giving up too easily.  But also don't over-stress yourselves. And don't forget to eat!  My aunt made me write that.  How do people forget to eat?

8-29-15, 4:23 PM
EmmaMM

Have a wonderful, wonderful time!  Peter and I will be thinking of you and praying for you!

8-29-15, 10:13 PM
The O'Hannas

We're very excited for you girls!  All the best from everyone in the Tunnels!  Diana and Zeke, we feel for you!

8-30-15, 6:45 AM
Clay-on-the-farm

From all of us in Albany:

Enjoy your orientation, Ivy and Violeta!

Hailey, we hope your first weekend is going well!

8-30-15, 9:15 AM
JenniAnn

Andrew and I just dropped Ivy and Violeta off...

They were so happy and giggly!  I know they'll have a wonderful day.

I love you girls so much.  You're so beautiful and kind and sweet and Joshua is so proud of you and we're so proud and you're so special to all of us and

8-30-15, 10:11 AM
AndrewAOD

JenniAnn's taking a nap with Belle now.  She wanted you girls to know she loves you.  I love you, too!

8-30-15, 12:15 PM
Gryffindor Max

{{{Maja, Dad}}}

Go get 'em, Ivy and Violeta and Hailey!

8-30-15, 7:14 PM
Hailey

Sorry for the delay in writing, everyone!  I've been busy but it's been so great!  My roommate is super nice and, thus far, I like all my profs.  Some seem like they'll be pretty tough but fair. 

Mom, Dad, Sy, Kendra, Manny... I miss you!  I miss all of you!  I'm glad I'll be coming home for the long weekend!  And then next weekend I'll get to see Zoe and Joccy!

Ivy and Violeta... how'd it go!?!?


8-30-15, 10:41 PM
Diana

Baby!  I'm so glad your first weekend went well!  You let me know what you want fixed for your homecoming dinner on Saturday!

8-31-15, 7:38 PM
LambMommy

We learned that yes means yes...  That was kind of weird.  I mean it was a good thing.  But weird.


9-1-15, 7:15 AM
JenniAnn

Hugs!  Do you need to talk about it, hon?  Let me know if you do.

9-1-15, 5:12 PM
LambMommy

Thanks!  Ivy and I talked about it with a couple of other girls who were sitting near us during the talk so I think I'm okay.

9-1-15, 5:34 PM
JenniAnn

Oh, okay.  That's good. 

I'm really glad all three of you girls are having a nice time.

9-1-15, 6:07 PM
IvyLee

Actually, I'd like to discuss it.  Maybe we could host dinner Sunday night at Serendipity?

Hailey, did they cover this there?

9-1-15, 6:44 PM
Hailey

Yeah.  I'd love to join you and compare notes.  And see everyone!

9-1-15, 7:13 PM
EmmaMM

Hi girls!  Would it be okay if I joined you?  I'd really like to know what's being taught these days.

9-1-15, 7:43 PM
LambMommy

Of course, Emma!  We'd love that.  Yay!  Getting excited!  Serious topic... but we can still have yummy treats and fun!

8-31-15, 6:02 PM
Owen-Tunnels

I hope you continue to enjoy yourselves!  So proud of you! 

Ivy and Violeta, thanks for sending me the schedule for the gallery there.  Looking forward to making a visit!

9-1-15, 7:26 PM
Monica

Hullo, girls!  I'm sorry I didn't get to respond to this until now.  I'm so excited for the three of you and very glad that you enjoyed your first few days!

My advice?  Make friends with the folks at the cafe. 

Tunnel teacher assignments
8-21-15, 3:23 PM
Owen-Tunnels

Hey everyone.  So we had a meeting with Principal Vincent earlier today and there are some changes to the Tunnel class assignments.  I thought I'd post them here because I know some of you volunteer with us sometimes.  This might help with knowing who to contact.

Literature- Vincent's still going to be heading this up but Rose is going to take on the class 2-3 times a week.
History- Vincent
Religion- JenniAnn
Art- yours truly
Dance- Kemara (until she goes on maternity leave) 
Writing- Even during her leave, Kemara's going to be staying busy by helping the older kids with papers, college entrance essays, etc.
Math/Finance- Sean
Sciences- We still have a rotating group of Helpers handling that.  As the weather allows, we'll be moving a lot of that to Dyeland where the kids can observe the weather and environment, do experiments, etc. 
Languages- As always, we have assorted Tunnel dwellers and Helpers handling those, too.  Thanks, Peter, for offering to take over Spanish.  Consuela is very happy to retire after fifty plus years!
Shop- Eliot

With the extra time he'll have thanks to Rose, Vincent's going to focus on a new pre-K program with Omar and Belle and a few Tunnel little 'uns.

Additionally, thanks to the generosity of our friends in L.A., we have a bunch of new computers set up in Dyeland's newly renamed Asterian Academy.  The older kids will be using those to complete online classes on a variety of subjects.

I think that's it!  As always, we appreciate all of you who volunteer your time to help our kids!


8-21-15, 4:25 PM
JenniAnn

I'm so looking forward to this year!  And it'll be so great to have Vincent teaching the little ones.  Poor Belle was starting to get restless when she'd just have to play by herself while we taught.  Now she can go to school just like her sisters and brother!


8-22-15, 5:58 AM
Caterpillar-Kylie

Sounds like a great group of teachers!  Let me know if you'd ever like me to help out!  I'm assistant teaching here in Albany but usually it's just the mornings. 

8-22-15, 7:13 AM
EmmaMM

I'm no expert on Irish dancing but if you'd like me to give a few basic dance classes while Kemara's on leave, just to keep the kids moving, let me know!

8-22-15, 8:23 AM
Owen-Tunnels

Will do!  Thanks Kylie and Emma!

8-23-15, 9:34 AM
ShaneWhoTeaches

I'm happy to help, too.  It'd have to be outside of regular school hours since I need to be with my class then but if there's any tutoring I can do, just holler.

8-23-15, 4:45 PM
JenniAnn

Thanks, Shane!  We appreciate that!

8-23-15, 6:49 AM
Eric-in-Progress

Hi there.  This is Neela.  I'm still working at Eric's dad's place and have very flexible hours.  Now that Zane's starting school, I'll have extra time on my hands.  Let me know how I can help!

8-23-15, 8:25 AM
Owen-Tunnels

Will do!  I hope Zane enjoys school!

A very welcome blast from the past
8-14-15, 6:13 AM
AndrewAOD

Hi everyone.  Yesterday was a pretty amazing day here at Willowveil.  As some of you have heard, Belle found her long-lost Uncle Behnam.  JenniAnn, Violeta, and I had a few moments of sheer panic when Belle went missing but that fear turned into a whole lot of joy.  Behnam is Badriya's younger brother and the fellow who helped Adam locate Max and me when we were lost in Afghanistan.  I always wondered what became of him and prayed he was well.  I never imagined that he and his family would one day be guests in our home!

Behnam is married to a very sweet girl named Isra and they have two little ones: Aiyla and Omar.  Belle is already completely enamored with her two new cousins and JenniAnn and I have had a great time getting to know the family.  We look forward to all of you meeting them at Max's adoption party next week.

A couple things: Isra converted to Christianity from Islam during the family's stay in Florida after they immigrated to the U.S.  Near as I can tell, they seem to be raising Aiyla and Omar as Christians, too.  Behnam very much believes in God but is uncertain beyond that.  None of them know about Joshua and JenniAnn, Violeta, and myself don't have any inkling that we're supposed to tell them about him.  They do realize that the paintings we have are of a friend who played Jesus in JCS.  So please be careful what you say about Joshua around them because I think we all know those realizations have to happen in God's time.

I'm... wow... incredibly moved by His work here.


8-14-15, 7:01 AM
Gryffindor Max

It really was amazing to meet Behnam, Isra, and the kids.  Unlike Adam and Dad, I never met Behnam but would wonder about who this man was who risked his uncle's wrath to help us and Badriya out.  I'm really glad that now we'll be able to help them out as needed.


8-14-15, 9:15 AM
JenniAnn

They're really lovely people!  We just saw them off and can't wait to spend time with them again.  I'm also really glad that Belle will have this connection to her birth family... and that my beloved Andrew now has some of the answers he wanted.  {{{{Andrew}}}}

8-14-15, 10:44 AM
AndrewAOD

Thanks, Laja.  Now I think I'll mosey on out of this carpentry shop and claim that hug for real. 

8-14-15, 11:09 AM
LambMommy

And he did!  I saw it! 

So happy for lil Belle and my amazing supervisor and the Al-Mitras.  Love them!


8-14-15, 2:14 PM
I <3 Turkeys

It was pretty special to get to spend quality time with Behnam and meet his beautiful family.  Vincent was certainly a hit!


8-14-15, 3:27 PM
Owen-Tunnels

Kids love Vincent.  Catherine's looking forward to meeting the grandkids she suddenly finds herself with!  This is all really, really great.

8-15-15, 5:12 AM
Arthur-A-Stor

That's amazing!  We'll have to arrange a play date.  Do you think they'd be open to considering Liam a cousin, too?


8-15-15, 8:23 AM
AndrewAOD

I'm sure they would.  I think they're very much wanting to feel part of a bigger family again.  I think Omar, especially, would like having another boy to play with.

8-15-15, 10:11 AM
Diana
 
Zeke and I cried reading this!  We're so happy for you and the Al-Mitras!  You let us know if there's anything we can do.  I've got lots of extra kids' books and coloring books.  Zeke can also get some stickers and craft projects from our church if you think they'd welcome those.

8-15-15, 2:17 PM
Rose

I think they'd love the crafts, Diana and Zeke.  Aiyla noticed my cross the evening we met and I took the opportunity to ask Isra about what the kids believe.  She said they're raising them Christian.  I got the feeling they went to one of those big stadium-like interdenominational churches in Florida. 

8-15-15, 2:34 PM
Zeke

Thanks, Rose!  We'll get a care package together.

8-15-15, 3:10 PM
Peter-the-Rock

Joshua's wonders never cease to amaze, do they?  If you think they'd feel up to it, ask them if they'd like to visit when we do Camelot rehearsals.  Maybe they'll want to join us in a future show?  Even if not, we're a fun crowd to be around. 

8-15-15, 8:45 PM
Clay-on-the-farm

Great idea!  Randall and Dot said they're welcome here any time.  Do the kids like animals?

Us here in Albany are all very happy for you, Andrew.

8-16-15, 9:13 AM
JenniAnn

Oh yeah!  They were very smitten with Yonah, Mary, Silvio, Fawn, Lulu, and Harvey.  They'd love that.  Big thanks to Dot and Randall!

Thanks everyone for the warm wishes!  We're so excited to make introductions!

8-17-15, 8:43 AM
Sean

Wow! That's fantastic! Joshua is so awesome! Kemara and I can't wait to meet everyone. Please let them know about the Swap Shop...It's bulging at the seams, and they're welcome to whatever they can use. We picked up several sets of crayons and paint boxes on sale the other day. And I think I saw a few new toys as well. :)

8-17-15, 9:12 AM
AndrewAOD

Thank you so much, Sean.  They'll really appreciate that.  Behnam, Isra, and the kids have already been astounded by everyone's generosity.

Vacation reflections
7-27-15, 7:13 AM
Caterpillar-Kylie

Hi from Albany!  I still haven't gotten used to waking up here and being able to walk outside and into the fresh air!  Love it!

So what were everyone's favorite moments from vacation?

Let's see...  For me:

--You all surprising Clay and me with that adorable cabin.  So sweet!  Thank you all again!
--On the theme of surprises... JenniAnn on her birthday was so cute!  So glad Allison and Robert could join us!  And I'm still dreaming about that lasagna.
--The Parkway.  Maybe I was just feeling lazy but it was so nice to see all that scenery from the comfort of the car! 

Who's next?  How did everything go for those who stayed in town? 


7-27-15, 7:49 AM
Eric-in-Progress

So did anyone learn any dirty dancing?    Cause I did!

Yep...  My uncle had one too many mojitos on the last night of our family reunion and treated some of us to a really special dance... a traumatizing, special dance.  I will never think of Taylor Swift's "Bad Blood" in the same way.  Never.

  But, really, other than that we had a really nice time and I was glad Neela and Zane got to meet the extended family... even including Uncle Tony.  So glad you all had a blast!

7-27-15, 10:02 AM
LambMommy

Oooh...  Hmmm...

Well, I loved spending time with my roomie and, of course, all of you.  And seeing the animals at the Nature Center!  And the Fun Depot!  And JenniAnn's birthday dinner!

7-27-15, 3:12 PM
Peter-the-Rock

I was pretty partial to the Biltmore.  Amazing!  I thought we were going to have to forcibly remove some of you from that library. 

Getting to the top of Chimney Rock was an experience!  Boy...  My legs felt like jelly but Emma and I already have that photo of us by the flag on our mantel so totally worth it.  Watching everyone do their best Daniel Day-Lewis impressions... hilarious.  I think Adam won.


7-27-15, 4:13 PM
Sean

Sean here, I liked Sliding Rock the best. Or rather....I enjoyed watching everyone take their turns. Owen's scream that first trip was epic! And no dirty dancing for us. Well, none that we'd admit to! <G>  Even before we were married Kemara refused point blank to try that jump. Don't want to think what would happen if we attempted it now! ::shudder::

This is Kemara...Don't pay any attention to him...We started painting the nursery today, and I think he's high on paint fumes. My favorite thing was the hot tub on the deck, but I don't think that's news to anyone! Seriously though, I just enjoyed spending time with everyone in all sorts of combinations, especially those of you I haven't really gotten to know yet. I'm looking forward to more adventures!


7-28-15, 6:43 AM
JenniAnn

Aww...  So many great memories!  I loved my birthday party.  Thank you, everyone!  And I really did have a great time at the Grove Arcade.  I can't remember the last time I spent so long just doing chill stuff like shopping, looking at art, and sipping iced coffees.  And I also loved watching the kids.  So much happiness!  And I include my big kid in that.  I think Andrew wants a waterfall slide...

7-28-15, 7:15 AM
AndrewAOD

It'd be nice!  But I do think it'd be fun to have a water slide of any variety for the kids.

7-28-15, 8:23 AM
JenniAnn

Right...  "For the kids." 

7-28-15, 9:31 AM
Gryffindor Max

I love it!  I second dad's idea... for the kids!

7-29-15, 1:23 PM
Owen-Tunnels

Thirded!

7-29-15, 3:52 PM
CalebtheCowboy

Fourthed! 

Trip itinerary
7-10-15, 8:42 AM
AndrewAOD

Hey, everyone.  Wow.  We've been spending so much time together that I guess we just haven't had much reason to use this forum.  It's been really great and I'm looking forward to our trip to North Carolina.  I thought I'd post our itinerary here so those not accompanying us could still be in the know.  I've got some contact notes at the bottom, too.  Of course, weather and other unexpected things could change it but for now, here's what we have:

Sunday, July 12 - Leave from NY.  Spend the night halfway in Harrisonburg, VA.  It'll be about a 5.5 hour drive to get there.  Possible attractions include Luray Caverns and the Firehouse museum.

Monday, July 13 - Arrive in NC.  Our cabin is near Asheville.  After getting groceries, we'll probably stay "home" for the evening.

Tuesday, July 14 - Biltmore.  That should take a whole day just by itself.

Wednesday, July 15- We'll do some shopping and other activities in Asheville.

Thursday, July 16- Trip to Pisgah Forest/Sliding Rock.

Friday, July 17- At that point, we'll likely be needing a day at the cabin to recharge.

Saturday, July 18-Western NC Nature Center

Sunday, July 19- This might be another cabin day.  We'll decide whether to find a church or hold our own service.  The adults can watch Last of the Mohicans in preparation for going to Chimney Rock.  We have to remember to grab a few movies for the kids.

Monday, July 20- Chimney Rock

Tuesday, July 21- The Parkway

Wednesday, July 22- Hendersonville shopping

Thursday, July 23- Day at the cabin.  Some of us might be watching Dirty Dancing

Friday, July 24- Laja's birthday!  Lake Lure dinner.

Saturday, July 25- Start drive back, stay over midway in Harrisburg again.

Sunday, July 26-Return home.

----------------------------------------------

Big thanks to Dot and Randall for holding down the farm so Clay, Caleb, and Edward can all join us.  Dot, we hope your ladies' Bible study group has a fruitful retreat.

Tiva and Rabbi Yakov, we're sorry you can't join us but be sure to text or call someone as soon as that new grandbaby of yours arrives!

Fr. Mike, we all wish you could get away.  We'll try to catch up a few times on FaceTime.  Call any time you want to talk!

Vincent and Catherine, thanks for being "on call" in case anything happens in Dyeland and thanks to all the Tunnel dwellers who are helping out with watching over our pets.  We're a little worried about how Belle's going to handle being away from her grandparents!

Also, just a note that Basil and Azalea didn't want to take any more time away from Lily's Loot so they're still in town.  Please give them a call if anything is going on with St. Genesius'.  Eric has a family reunion that he didn't want to miss so he and Neela will also be in town.  He said not to hesitate to call him if anything's needed there in New York.

We'll see you all on the 26th or shortly thereafter!


7-10-15, 9:17 AM
LambMommy

I'm sooooo excited!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  I love vacations!!!!!!!!!!!

Wait... there won't be roller-coasters, will there be?


7-10-15, 8:46 PM
JenniAnn

No, honey.  No roller-coasters.  Besides, even if there were, you could just wait with me.  I think my roller-coaster days are over!


7-11-15, 4:04 PM
EmmaMM

I'd be waiting with you both, too! 

Our itinerary looks like so much fun!  I can't decide what I'm most looking forward to.  Maybe the Biltmore?  I know we won't be as impressed by their wine as most people are, though.  We have the best thanks to...



7-11-15, 6:13 PM
ShaneWhoTeaches

Ain't that the truth about the wine!  All the outdoorsy events sound great to me.  I'm excited to get out of the city for a while.

7-11-15, 10:21 PM
Gryffindor Max

Less than 12 hours til we're on our way!  Woooo!!!!

7-12-15, 5:54 AM
Rose

He's not excited or anything. 

College advice
5-31-15, 4:24 PM
LambMommy

Hi!  I hope everyone's week is starting out well!  I'm still super, super happy about Joshua getting me into college!!!  {{{}}}

He said that it was the best way for me to learn more about what it's like to be a human and the different ways humans do stuff and think and believe and... everything!  Eventually, it'll make me an even better AOD.  So that's what I want to do!

But even though I know that's the big thing I want to get out of college, I don't know about the smaller goals and experiences I should have... and not have.  I mean I know certain things, of course.  (No drinking!  Unless it's Joshua's wine and I'm at home.  And then only one glass.)  But not everything.  And I thought Ivy and Hailey might like some advice, too, so...

What's your best advice for incoming college kids???

5-31-15, 5:02 PM
ShaneWhoTeaches

Have fun!  Definitely learn a lot but also have fun.  You can learn so much just by visiting with and hanging out with other students.  Yes, everyone talks about the wild parties but, trust me, you'll find plenty of kids who just want to sit around a table with cups of chai and talk.  Some of the deepest, most interesting conversations I've had were back in my college days.  In fact, they're rivaled only by conversations we've had with our group.  Enjoy them, girls!


5-31-15, 5:42 PM
Eric-in-Progress

I second what Shane said.  But I'll add this: be yourself.  If you're interested in an on-campus group, learn more about them and maybe join in you like what you see.  But don't join just because you think it'll make you popular.  Take it from the voice of experience.  I wish I'd stayed away from the frat and taken part in some of the school's theatre productions.

5-31-15, 6:25 PM
EmmaMM

I'm so happy for you girls!  I didn't go to college so I can't say much about that.  But I was your age once and I know it can be a stressful time.  So when you need to: close the books, turn away from the computer, take a few deep breaths, and remember that God loves you no matter what your grades are.


6-1-15, 7:02 AM
Kemara

Violeta, I hope you, Ivy and Hailey have as much fun at college as I did. I agree with Eric about finding a club or activity that interests you. I got involved with the chorus and took classes in sailing and canoeing. That was fun for someone who'd never done any kind of sports! 

Since you're not living on campus, you won't have to worry so much about the party scene, but don't necessarily turn down going out with friends either. I have great memories from the local Pizza Hut. :)

Sean wants me to add that while he can't advise you about college, he wants you girls to remember that we're here if you need anything at all - day or night. If you need an escort home at 2 a.m. for ANY reason, call and he or one of the other guys will come - no questions asked.


6-1-15, 8:46 PM
JenniAnn

Aww thanks, Sean.  Andrew was that person for me and it's such a great feeling to know that person (or people) are out there.  I'm very glad the girls will have that.

Kemara's right.  Hang outs are good.  Mine in college sounds like what Shane had in mind.  It was a little coffee house and while I hadn't yet discovered the yumminess of chai, I have happy memories of sipping raspberry mochas with friends.

6-2-15, 9:46 AM
AndrewAOD

Be yourself, sweetheart.  Same to you, Ivy and Hailey.  You're all wonderful young ladies and I look forward to seeing where these next four years bring you.  College offers a lot of opportunities to grow and that's really important.  Studying is important.  But don't let yourselves get so stressed that you forget to tend to your own spiritual, emotional, and intellectual needs.  And physical, too!  Don't forget to eat!  I know that sounds goofy but I've seen things...  And grades... it's important to get good grades but you're not your grades.  Straight As isn't worth not living outside textbooks and Blue Books.  Take plenty of time for family life, too.  Please.

6-2-15, 9:53 AM
JenniAnn

Andrew, do you need a hug?

6-2-15, 10:06 AM
AndrewAOD

Uh huh...

6-2-15, 10:32 AM
Gryffindor Max

I read these messages just in time to run into the library and snap a photo of the aforementioned hug.  Totally going into our next video. 

As for my advice, don't be afraid to try something new.  It might be more difficult your first couple of years but once you get more of your requirements done, go for the class that just sounds interesting even if it'll mean nothing towards getting your degree.

6-2-15, 11:24 AM
LambMommy

Aww!  Such a sweet photo!  Thanks for texting it to me.  Someone has to text me all the cute stuff Belle does during the school days!  And Mary and Silly, too, if anyone happens to check on them...

Don't worry, Andrew.  I won't ever, ever, ever, ever give up family time!  Or friends time!  Hugs to everyone!  I love you all!!!!  {{{Everyone}}}

Thanks for all the advice!!! 

Thank you
5-24-15, 9:59 PM
Kemara

Hello all,
Sean and I want to thank all of you so much for your love and support over the past couple of days. We've been doing a lot of talking - with you, each other and Joshua - and we agree that we want Joy and Ian no matter what their "problems" might be. We're still scared about what's ahead, but knowing you're there for us, is a great comfort.

All our love,
Kemara and Sean

5-24-15, 10:27 PM
Peter-the-Rock

I'm so glad to read this, Kemara and Sean.  Just know that, whatever comes, you're not going to face it alone.  You've got Joshua and we'll be there, too, rain or shine!


5-24-15, 11:15 PM
EmmaMM

You will both be awesome parents!  I can't wait to meet the little ones! 

5-25-15, 1:12 AM
LambMommy

I'm so happy!  I can't wait to hug them!  I bet you can't either!


5-25-15, 5:58 AM
JenniAnn

I'm so glad that you two have been able to talk!  Let us know if there's anything we can do! 

5-25-15, 6:08 AM
ShaneWhoTeaches

That's great, Kemara and Sean!  Let Diana and I know where to start delivering the kids' books.    Your place or the Swap Shop?


5-25-15, 11:24 PM
Gryffindor Max

How do you both feel about comic books?    Rose and I are totally buying Ian and Joy Gryffindor onesies!

5-25-15, 6:14 AM
AndrewAOD

Parenthood always has an element of fear to it, I think.  But I'm really glad that you both know you have so many people on your side.  Can't wait to meet you, Joy and Ian! 

5-25-15, 7:17 AM
Caterpillar-Kylie

{{{Kemara and Sean and Joy and Ian}}}

Everyone here at the farm is praying for you and looking forward to seeing you soon... well, a lil bit later for Joy and Ian. 

5-25-15, 7:19 AM
Zeke

Diana, the kids, and I are so happy for you both.  We pray that you feel more at peace now.  Let us know when you need babysitters!


5-25-15, 7:43 AM
The O'Hannas

That's so great, Kemara and Sean! 

5-25-15, 8:01 AM
I <3 Turkeys

So glad to read this!  I'll be praying for you both and the little ones.


5-25-15, 8:23 AM
Owen-Tunnels

Hi there.  Since not everyone in the Tunnels is computer friendly, I was asked to post on behalf of all of us.  Kemara and Sean, we're all very happy to read this update.  Speaking for myself, I call dibs on first portrait opportunity!


5-25-15, 9:12 AM
Arthur-A-Stor

And I'm writing on behalf of Monica, Liam, and myself.  Great news!  Liam can't wait to meet his cousins and Monica and I are so glad you two found time to talk with each other and Joshua.


5-25-15, 9:28 AM
Eric-in-Progress

Stole Eric's account.  So great!  Eric, Zany, and I are looking forward to welcoming Joy and Ian to the world.  ~Neela

5-25-15, 10:59 AM
Kemara

Oh my goodness, I don't even know where to start! Yes, to books and comics and onesies and babysitting offers and

Sean here. Kemara was crying so hard she couldn't type. These past few days have been a roller coaster ride, as you can imagine, so we're both a little emotional right now. We spent yesterday on Skellig with a picnic basket just talking about everything and holding nothing back. That helped a lot and so did the talks we've had with all of you. So now we're ready to start planning.

Owen, Kemara has a rough sketch of how she wants the nursery painted. She says she'll get with you sometime this week to talk over idea. We want some kind of Bible quotes on the wall, too. "Behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy," for one - thanks Andrew! - but we're not sure about Ian. His name means "God is Gracious," so we're open to suggestions from everyone.

Max and Rose, comics are great! I'll have to see if mom still has my collection. Kemara says while she loves the onesie idea, she has to support Ravenclaw. I don't see what all the fuss is about myself. ::runs for cover::

Shane, thanks so much for the offer of books. That's awesome! Since we've yet to get the nursery started, it's probably better to store any books or other baby stuff at the swap shop. Kemara and I are amazed at how much is there already.

This is Kemara again! Sorry about that...like Sean said it's been hard, and then to come here and see all your posts...Anyway, thank you all again.

Ladies, I think I'm almost ready to expand my wardrobe, so I thought maybe next Saturday would be a good time for a shopping trip. Diana, thanks so much for what you donated! I've already picked out some favorites. If you want to come with us, I know I could use your advice.

Thank you again for your prayers and good wishes!

All our love,
Kemara and Sean

Triggers
5-23-15, 4:33 AM
EmmaMM

Hi everyone,

Seems like we've been seeing each other so much lately that we haven't had a lot of reason to use this.  But I guess, for me at least, some things are still easier to discuss this way than in person.  At least to start.  But before I get into that I just want to let Sean and Kemara know that Peter and I are thinking of and praying for you.  Kemara, if you need a break or anything and would like me to cover your dance classes, please let me know.

The reason I'm posting is I've just been kind of out of sorts since the recent news story about sexual abuse.  I don't really see any reason to get deep into a discussion about that particular case because enough people are doing that and it feels wrong and in some cases very disrespectful to the victims.  I guess what's shaken me most is some of the commentary because it seems like a lot of people believe stuff that could be harmful to so many people.  I probably shouldn't have but I couldn't keep myself from reading more about what that particular sect believes and it's odious.  But worst still, people not even in it seem to have internalized the same victim-blaming or victim-minimizing beliefs.  At the same time, it also scares me that a lot of people are acting like those beliefs are the only reason that happened.  I came from a pretty run-of-the-mill church.  No priest was preaching about the glories of "Christian patriarchy."  But it still happened to me.

And the whole forgiveness and not being judgmental thing...  I really do believe "Thou shalt not judge" but surely that's not the same as saying "You've done something very wrong and you need to pay for it and you definitely shouldn't be in a position of influence," is it?

I'm sure I'll say more later.  I just had to get that off my chest.

5-23-15, 6:08 AM
JenniAnn

{{{{Kemara and Sean}}}}

{{{{Emma}}}}  You were one of the first people I thought of when I heard about this.  You're right.  Some of the commentary has been awful. 

I have no love for the "Christian patriarchy" system.  Beyond the horrid treatment of women and children, it just strikes me as blasphemous.  There's only one Lord.  He's not married... and also not a cretin.  No one else should be called Lord or considered Lord. 

You're absolutely right that it is frightening that some people are acting as if that alone enabled what happened.  I think it's the typical human reaction of "that could never happen to me/my child."  But ignorance and denial do not help.  And victim-blaming beliefs can sneak into all sorts of systems and individuals. 

As for judgment, I think you're exactly right.  People can forgive but that doesn't mean being foolish and not holding people accountable.  That's what bothers me most about some of the reactions.  I'm concerned not only for those particular victims but also survivors of abuse as a whole.  The "it was years ago, we need to move on" people may make survivors feel like they should no longer feel angry, no longer want that person kept far away from them, and feel forced to accept apologies they are not ready to accept and may never be ready to accept.  Once someone has committed such a crime, they no longer get to control the timeline. 


5-23-15, 7:32 AM
ShaneWhoTeaches

Hugs to Emma, Kemara, and Sean.  And all of you! 

As a teacher, the people acting as if his age somehow makes him less culpable really bother me.  I know teenagers are brighter than that!  Toddlers are, too!  Belle isn't even two and she already has enough emotional intelligence to tell when someone's upset.  I've seen her pet and comfort her doggies when their tails get accidentally stepped on.  So I simply can't believe that a teenager wouldn't know, based on the distress caused, that what they were doing was wrong and they need to never, never do it again.  If a toddler can pick up on emotional distress, a teenager certainly can.

What happened to these girls and what happened to you, sweet Emma, makes me so angry with the adults who were around and had to... absolutely had to... know something very wrong was happening.  To know that and not immediately isolate the abuser from the victim(s) is a failure too big for me to even comprehend.  Sadly, some of my own kids have suffered from such negligence.  My comfort is that, at school, they have adults who they can confide in and who will help them.  But what if someone has no school or no church beyond the reach of those abusing or enabling their abuse?  That breaks my heart and I'm so sorry you found yourself there, Emma.


5-23-15, 7:43 AM
EmmaMM

Thank you, JenniAnn and Shane.  Reading your words really help.  Peter and I are going to go for a walk then I'll be back to say more. 

5-23-15, 8:12 AM
AndrewAOD

I hope the walk helps you both.  I'm praying for you, Emma, and you, Peter.

Unfortunately, I've seen a lot of abuse cases over the years.  Having that trusted person who will help and protect is so vital both in short-term safety and long-term healing.  When someone has been abused and they speak out but are ignored, shamed, or see their abuser receive only a proverbial slap on the wrist; that often compounds their pain.  That's one of the reasons this situation and others like it make me so sad. 

I think the mandatory reporting laws have helped but they don't if a person is isolated from those helpers or only near them while under the supervision of people who are complicit in the abuse.

I keep thinking about things JenniAnn and I can do that would help Belle and Shelby and really any of the kids know that if they did ever have to tell us about someone hurting them, we'd 100% believe them and wouldn't blame them.  We know we wouldn't.  But how do we convey that to them without scaring them?  It's a terrible thing to even think about it but I'll think about it if it means potentially keeping the kids from carrying guilt and shame that is NOT theirs.

5-23-15, 8:48 AM
Diana

Andrew, I think that's exactly the right response.  Zeke and I have been talking about this sad story, including with the kids.  The truth is, none of us can do anything to directly help those victims beyond praying.  But we can help our kids.

I'll admit Zeke and I dragged our feet on bringing this up with the kids when they were younger.  As you said, we simply didn't want to scare them.  But then, when Hailey was 12, one of her friends was raped by her mother's boyfriend.  Along with being heartbroken for the girl (and for Hailey and her other friends who were devastated and confused), Zeke and I were scared.  That's when we sat the kids down and told them that if anyone... and it absolutely didn't matter who it was... ever hurt them or did anything that made them uncomfortable or made them feel unsafe, we would believe them and do everything we could to help them.  We stressed that they should tell us even if the person threatened to hurt us or them if they told.

I think parents build that trust with their kids via little, even seemingly insignificant things.  Every parent knows that kids get rattled by some of the most random, minor things.  But when you as a parent sit down and listen and take them seriously when they tell you about a nightmare that, to you, just sounds funny, you're sending them the message that their feelings matter and you'll always listen.  I have a feeling you and JenniAnn are already doing that, Andrew.

Emma, if you get to a point where you want to talk about this in person, you be sure to let us know.  Or even if you just want to be together but don't want to talk about it.  Enjoy your walk, sweetheart.

Kemara and Sean, that goes for you both, too.

5-23-15, 9:02 AM
EmmaMM

Hi again.  We're back.  Talking with Peter... and not talking with Peter, just quietly being with him... and praying have helped me put into words other aspects of this that upset me. 

I guess it's probably a pretty fine distinction but while I believe Joshua and the Father can bring some good out of anything and do, I don't think that actually changes the horribleness of what happened.  Does that make sense? 

Andrew and Diana, I'd love to see more about helping our kids... existing and hopefully-to-be.  Thinking about that makes me feel empowered.  And, Diana, coffee later might be good.  Maybe after dance class?
 

5-23-15, 9:33 PM
Caterpillar-Kylie

Hi everyone.  Emma, I totally understand what you mean.  It does make sense.  I think it's like this: we can be glad for when God works something good into our lives after something bad.  But we also can't say with any assurance that He didn't plan to work that same sort of miracle in another way separate from the bad event.

For example, some might say that God brought my meeting Clay out of Jett's abuse of me.  After all, I was at Cora's house because I had to leave my house and because I was at Cora's, I tagged along to the veterans' hospital and met a really wonderful guy.  But maybe God's actual will was that Jett come home, we rationally discuss the deplorable state of our marriage, I go to Cora's for a few days, and then things proceed as they have.  Either way, God did something great in bringing Clay and me together.  But I don't think I need to be in anyway grateful or positive about the fact that Jett could have killed me.  That's still terrible and it'll always be terrible.  Have I forgiven Jett?  Yes.  Do I want to ever see Jett again?  No.  Do I have any sympathy for him?  Also no.  I think all of that can coexist and be moral and okay.  I believe Joshua redeems people.  I don't believe he necessarily redeems actions because he doesn't have to.

I also like what you said about abuse not being restricted to a particular group.  I came from a pretty strict,very traditional church but I'd honestly never heard of "Christian patriarchy" until our resident theologian went on a rant about it.  (Love you, JenniAnn.)  Being outside of that didn't keep me from being abused.

5-23-15, 10:03 AM
Clay-on-the-farm

I like that idea a lot, Kylie.  I know I've heard people say "It was God's will" about all kinds of things that make you wonder what sort of God would will that.  Certainly not the God we know.

I am very glad that we met. 

As for the original subject, I keep hoping and praying that the girls involved in that case and all survivors of abuse get the counseling they need: no shame, no blame, just compassion and loving support. 


5-23-15, 10:17 AM
Caterpillar-Kylie

I'm glad we met, too, Clay!  And I agree about the counseling.  So important!

5-24-15, 6:41 AM
AndrewAOD

Emma and all, JenniAnn and I talked about this some last night.  We had Belle and Shelby in mind so this is more geared to girls.  It's just a start but it's what we'd want to convey as part of The Talk... which should really be a series of talks.  So these are some of the ideas we'd hope to impart.  This isn't anywhere near all of them.  We got tired and went to bed after #5.
 
1.  We'd want them to know that it's our hope for them to always feel safe and secure in their relationships (if they have them... not being in a relationship is perfectly fine, too!)  Sex and even non-sexual emotional and physical intimacy bonds two people together very much and so it can be incredibly hard if/when that connection is broken.  It can also be really beautiful when those connections mature and deepen over time.  So we'd want them to be careful and thoughtful about their relationships and how they develop.  We don't want them to ever feel pressured into having sex because if pressure is involved, that means the other person doesn't have their best interests at heart and that's wrong.  Further, Joshua and the Father, who love them even more than we do, don’t want them to be hurt by a relationship that isn't built on mutual love and respect.  That being said, if they did have a relationship of that depth and it fell apart, God would still love and value them very, very much (so would we!) so they should never, ever feel that their worth is hinged on their relationship status. 

2.  We also want to stress, though, that the other person has feelings, too.  The stereotype is often that boys only have sex on their minds and, for them, it's just a fun thing.  That's simply not true.  Sure, it is for some people (male and female).  But boys can get their hearts hurt and broken, too.

3.  Virginity is not something to fetishize.  While it will be lovely if they and their partner both get to experience sex for the first time together, that’s definitely not going to be the most important part of their relationship either way.  If some guy is really into them being virgins... they should maybe take a good, hard look at whether he’s really wanting to pursue a relationship with them for the right reasons.
 
4.  If anyone ever says anything or does anything that makes them feel uncomfortable and threatened... they have the absolute right to say no, run away, scream, hit, or do whatever they need to do to get to a safe place.  They should always feel they can tell one of us or another trusted adult.  Even if the person tells them not to... especially if they do... no matter if they threaten something.  And if something does happen, it is NOT their fault nor does it change anything about how valued and loved they are by God or family.

Anyone else have suggestions?

5-24-15, 9:17 AM
Zeke

Good list, Andrew and JenniAnn!

I think you're already doing well by your girls and Max.  One of the best things I think parents can do to help their kids form healthy, loving relationships is to model one.  Show them what mutual respect looks like.  Show them how beautiful love can be when it's built on trust.  Even show them how you disagree.  Let em know that two people can love each other and disagree and not pressure or bully the other into submission but, instead, compromise. 

5-24-15, 11:12 AM
EmmaMM

{{{Everyone!}}}  I'm feeling a lot better after reading all of these messages.  While we can certainly come back to this thread whenever people want, I'm feeling like I'd do okay talking about this at an upcoming Bible Study if people want.  That might even be more comforting.  Sound okay?

5-24-15, 4:34 PM
Gryffindor Max

I think that'd be great.  Sorry I've been quiet here.  I just couldn't quite write down what I wanted to say.  Talking would be easier, I think.  And Rose and I would definitely appreciate the parenting advice, too!  And, yes, Dad and Maja are good models!

5-24-15, 7:23 PM
Eric-in-Progress

What Max said.  I feel like I could say a lot about this.  I never abused anyone but I know I wasn't the man I should have been.  And maybe I could shed light on some of the mindsets out there.  But writing it down is hard.

5-24-15, 8:01 PM
EmmaMM

Then it's a plan!  And, Eric, I think that's very brave of you.

5-24-15, 10:23 PM
Peter-the-Rock

Thanks, everyone, who has participated thus far on this.  I think we'll have to pocket that list and Zeke's addition for later usage, huh, Emma?

5-24-15, 11:11 PM
EmmaMM

 
Definitely!

Swap Shop
4-6-15, 8:54 PM
Kemara


Hello all! Sean had the great idea of setting up a swap shop in a room at Willowveil for mom and baby clothes, toys, furniture/car seats, and bulk items like diapers and wipes. With Belle, Manny, our twins and hopefully many more littles to come, we think this could save everyone some money.

JenniAnn and Andrew, what do you think? Would setting up something like this work for you? I don't know how much room we'd need to start off. Maybe just a bedroom with a walk-in closet would do for now. Later, I can see us needing more space maybe.

We could keep a running list of what's available - I volunteer to handle that. And as new babies arrive and grow, families can contribute to a "diaper fund" so we can buy supplies like diapers and wipes in bulk.

I'd like to include the Tunnels as well although I'm sure you folks already have your own system set up.

Opinions, thoughts or suggestions?


4-7-15, 3:43 PM
AndrewAOD

Sounds like a great idea, Kemara and Sean!  JenniAnn and I agree that using one of the third floor bedrooms should be fine.  If the Swap Shop outgrows that, we could move it to the attic.  Since we have the elevator, there wouldn't be any access issues.

It'd be nice to see what Belle's outgrown be put to good use!

4-7-15, 3:43 PM
The O'Hannas

Hi everyone.  Brittony and I decided to share an account since neither of us are online much.  First post!

Edison and Eleanor mostly wear "Tunnel chic" but we did get them a couple Topside-friendly outfits at each stage.  We've learned from former Tunnel kids who move Above that it can be awkward getting to know people and not having "normal" baby and family photos to show.  So we did that.

Kemara and Sean, you'd be welcome to what our kids can't wear any more and then we'd be happy to contribute them to the Swap permanently.  I doubt we'll be having twins again!

Brittony also wanted me to let you know that she has some "mommy things" that she'd be happy to contribute.

Oh and Vincent said that he appreciates you inviting us Tunnel folk to take part.  That'd be great.  We do a good job of sharing here but there are some things that can be difficult to get.  For example, we have plenty of Tunnel maternity clothes but not much a pregnant lady would want to wear Above.  But we have a lot of bedding and furniture!

4-7-15, 5:14 PM
Kemara

About the maternity clothes: I'll probably start showing pretty soon - at least that's what Sean, the Google guru, tells me. When did Brittony start showing? Tell her I'll come visit soon with a whole bunch of questions! :)

Anyway, I thought of having a group shopping trip - Rose, Emma, Kylie and any of the Tunnel ladies who are expecting or planning to have kids in the near future - to look for maternity clothes we all like and would be happy sharing.....basics like tops and leggings and maybe a fancier dress or two.

Oh, Sean says we'll just have you guys to dinner one night. He says he's got a lot of questions too about this whole new-dad-with-twins business.


4-8-15, 3:52 PM
Caterpillar-Kylie

That's such a great idea about the swapping!  I don't have anything to contribute yet but hopefully some day!  Clay and I have already been praying about having little ones!  {{{}})  A shopping trip is always fun!

4-9-15, 7:08 AM
The O'Hannas

Hi!  It's Brittony now!

I started showing around 9 weeks but keep in mind that I'd been pregnant before (Galen!) and women typically show earlier once they've had a baby.  And, of course, everyone's different as Portia constantly reminded me.  Dinner would be lots of fun!

4-9-15, 9:18 PM
Diana

Before you all go shopping, let me bring over what I have.  The Lord blessed us mightily with our four babies and I know Manny's our last so I'd be happy to see my maternity clothes put to good use!  

JCS- Lessons learned, insights, interesting questions, etc.
4-6-15, 6:34 PM
Peter-the-Rock

Happy Easter, my friends!  Wasn't yesterday beautiful?  I really enjoyed getting to celebrate Joshua's resurrection with all of you for the second year in a row. 

Even though we've been talking about it, I thought this may be a good place to discuss this year's JCS production.  Did anyone have any audience feedback they wanted to share?  Or anything about your own experience that might help us for next year or that you just want to put out there?

Thanks!


4-6-15, 8:07 PM
EmmaMM

I got asked numerous times what it's like to date "Jesus." 

4-6-15, 6:34 PM
Peter-the-Rock

Oh boy...

I got asked if I think Jesus and MM really had something going on.  That was fun...  It's a little hard to back up your stance when you can't just say "Well, Jesus told me that..."


4-7-15, 5:43 AM
Zeke

I know what you mean, Peter.  I was asked what I think became of Judas.  And there we all are... knowing what became of Yehuda but how to say that without people thinking we're crazy?

I just told them that I believe God's mercy is infinite and I mentioned The Great Divorce.  It worked with me when I asked Joshua that same question.  Hopefully it'll help the people who asked, too.

4-7-15, 7:57 PM
ShaneWhoTeaches

I was asked where my throne came from.  Teared up a little and just said "a friend made it."  If they mentioned they'd been with us last year, I told them Joshua did.  The kids are glad to have it back in the classroom now.

Another great year, everyone!  Well done!


4-8-15, 8:56 PM
AndrewAOD

I had someone ask me if we'd ever consider doing an updated version.  You know, "Jesus" wearing a prison jump suit in Act II, Solo cups at the Last Supper, Pilate and Co. in suits, and so on.  Honestly, I prefer our version but I can see where that might impact some people more to see the modern dress and props.  What does everyone else think?

4-9-15, 5:17 AM
Peter-the-Rock

I like that idea but... I can't imagine never wearing Joshua's robe.  I feel so much more... Joshuan in it.  Thanks, Gloria, for the great word. 

4-9-15, 4:32 PM
AndrewAOD

I think, even if we did modernize, it would still be cool to see you in the robe during the Shema and the finale, Peter.  So I agree.  The robe stays!

I also think we'd disappoint a lot of folks if we totally did away with the more historically accurate look.  So if people are at all interested in an updated version, maybe we'd only do one that way per week.  Say the Friday night performances.  Choreography would have to remain the same for all shows.  That would be too much for people to memorize two different sets.

4-9-15, 10:03 PM
I <3 Turkeys

I like that idea of only doing some performances with a modern look.  As much as I hate to say it, there are modern Pilates, Caiaphases, and Annases: people who are so afraid of losing power that they'll hurt and even kill others to maintain it.

Joshua told me that he'd concerned coming out in his own, modern clothes in the finale just to show that he's still very much here in the present.  But, Peter, he decided he wanted his robe then, too... your robe now.  But if you were dressed in jeans and a button down at other points then we still get that idea across.

So we'd capture both aspects: the bad elements are still with us... but, more importantly, so is God. 

I wouldn't want to give up my armor entirely, though.  It's a good ice breaker with the kids who are otherwise terrified of me.  Armor is cool, apparently. 


4-10-15, 7:18 PM
JenniAnn

I was wondering if it might be worth our while to do a FAQ print-out in the program.  We tend to get asked the same questions a lot during our Q and A's and I know no one minds that but it would also be nice to get to cover more topics.  The print would also maybe clear up a few things for people who can't make it to the performances that have Q and A segments.

4-10-15, 10:38 PM
LambMommy

Oooh, JenniAnn... that reminds me.  I was told by numerous people how much their kids loved meeting Yonah before the show!  So he has to stay!  I'd ask if I could included Mary and Silly but they're getting twitterpated so maybe not...

4-11-15, 11:31 PM
Gryffindor Max

But I'm sure all the mommies and daddies in the audience would love to explain that to their kids, Violeta! 

4-12-15, 6:22 AM
LambMommy

Brat! 


4-12-15, 6:31 AM
Gryffindor Max

Wurst!  {{{Violeta}}}

4-12-15, 7:54 AM
Rose

I always wanted to marry a corny man.  So glad I can.   


4-13-15, 10:56 AM
Peter-the-Rock

Violeta, maybe if Mary and Silly do have some lambs, I could eventually hold a little one at some point.  We'd just have to be sure they're not too skittish.  I'd hate to scare them.

And now I'm craving bratwurst...  We should do a cook-out soon.

Great feedback, everyone!  Maybe we can talk about all these ideas and any others that you have on Wednesday at Bible Study.

Hello from Ireland
3-20-15, 5:32 PM
Kemara

Dia dhaoibh go Éireann! That's "Hello from Ireland" for those of you who don't speak the language.

Our flight got here yesterday about 8 local time, and it took us another half hour to drive out to the cottage. It really is in the middle of nowhere - a tiny village on the west coast with nothing more that a pub (of course) and a church (again, of course). The cottage is small, but fully equipped - I think the beach house needs radiators...they're wonderful! We got groceries and spent the rest of yesterday sleeping.

We got up this morning and drove around the area and got a map to plan what we might want to visit. Sean wants to climb Croagh Patrick, but I'm not sure about that! The weather's supposed to be in the upper-40s for a the next few days with the usual showers. Tonight, we're going to the pub after dinner to mingle with the locals and hopefully find some music.

I know we skipped out early on Tuesday, and only saw some of you before we left Wednesday. So we want to say thanks so much for celebrating our wedding and helping make it such a wonderful day. We love you! Sending best wishes that all goes well with JCS! Keep us updated!


3-20-15, 5:44 PM
ShaneWhoTeaches

Glad you got there safely!  Your friendly, neighborhood King Herod is wishing you both a happy honeymoon!

3-20-15, 5:52 PM
I <3 Turkeys

Your friendly, neighborhood Roman governor concurs!

Seriously, I hope you kids have a great time!  The turkeys and I send our love!


3-20-15, 6:22 PM
AndrewAOD

In case you can't tell, we're all thinking about you here at St. Genesius', Kemara and Sean!  So glad to read you're already having a great time.  We definitely will keep you posted.  We've only got a few tickets left for tonight so that's great! 

Say hi to the leprechauns for us! 

3-20-15, 6:37 PM
LambMommy

Are there really leprechauns???

Yay!  So glad your honeymoon is starting out so nice!  I can't wait to hear all about it!!!

3-20-15, 10:43 PM
JenniAnn

No, honey, there aren't leprechauns.  At least I don't think so...  Great job tonight, though!  Same for everyone!

Kemara and Sean, you were missed but I'm sure Ireland more than makes up for it!    I can't wait to see photos!
 

3-20-15, 11:03 PM
EmmaMM

Everyone here is wishing you well, Kemara and Sean!  The show was amazing tonight but it'll be even better when you're here with us!  I hope you had fun at the pub! 


3-21-15, 3:24 AM
Zeke

Little Man's just finished his bottle so Diana and I wanted to take a moment to get back to you, Kemara and Sean.  The wedding was beautiful, truly a celebration of your faith and your love for each other.  We'll be praying your honeymoon brings you even closer.


3-26-15, 2:34 PM
Kemara

Hello again! Having a great time; wish you were all here! It's corny, but it's true! We keep seeing things that each one of you would love. The weather has improved since last week, so we've been able to get out and do a lot of site seeing. Here are a couple of photos out of the dozens I've taken. The road is the one we take to go down to the bay. When the tide is out, you can walk along the beach to the atlantic shore. We waved to everyone. :) The other pic is a real castle, but I think I like Willowveil better. Love and hugs to all!





3-26-15, 4:24 PM
LambMommy

So cool!  I like Willowveil better, too.  Much more colorful.  But that is pretty!  Or "pitty" as Belle would say. 


3-26-15, 11:22 PM
AndrewAOD

Those are great, Kemara!  Thanks for sharing.  Laja loves that ivy.  We're looking forward to flipping through your photos when you get back!

3-27-15, 6:13 AM
JenniAnn

We should figure out how to train more to grow on Willowveil! 

Glad the weather got better, Kemara!  I hope you and Sean are having a blast!

3-27-15, 7:01 PM
Zeke

Almost showtime here!  You're missed, Kemara and Sean, but we're all so glad and grateful that you have this time together.  Big hugs from the Wilsons!

Relationship "Rules"
2-25-15, 5:47 AM
Diana

Hi everyone!  We've been spending so much time together that we haven't needed to connect much on this forum!  But Zeke and I thought of a topic that we think would be good for everyone to discuss, especially when we have so many couples who have taken big steps with their relationships!  So here it is: what are some rules, stated or simply understood, that you have with your loved ones?  This doesn't have to be betweent romantic partners only although it could be.  If you have a "rule" with a sibling or friend or child... please share it!  People might learn from you.

To get the ball rolling, here's one Zeke and I share: Always kiss each other good night.  It doesn't matter if we fought that day.  It doesn't matter if we're exhausted.  That kiss has to happen.  And I think it's working for us!

Anyone else?


2-25-15, 7:25 AM
Eric-in-Progress

First time on this board.  I hope I don't mess anything up.  I'm still in shock (good kind) about all of this! 

Neela and I have a rule and I'm usually the one who has to be called out for breaking it.  She told me early on that our relationship existed in the present, not in the past.  I have a lot of regrets (I believe you all witnessed some of them ) and sometimes I get stuck on them.  So Neela gave me an egg timer and a rule: I can wallow in my regrets until the timer goes off (usually after three minutes) and then I need to talk to her about something constructive.  It might even be about making restitution for what I regret.  But no more aimless ranting about what I've done.  I know it might sound more like it's a self-help thing for me but it really has helped us as a couple.  I know Neela loves me unconditionally (as I love her and Zane) because no matter what I say during those three minutes, she sticks by me.  And we plan together how I can turn my regret into something positive.  Having that outlet, even briefly, lets me focus on our life together so we can make good, "unregrettable" memories.


2-25-15, 12:37 PM
AndrewAOD

Great question, Diana!  And, Eric, I think that's a great idea.  Neela's a very wise woman!  I can think of some times when JenniAnn might have wished I had an egg timer. 

Speaking of JenniAnn, one rule we've developed is that while we both try to be empathetic, neither of us is a mind-reader.  So if either of us has upset the other one, we tell each other that.  Usually it was completely unintentional but, unless we're told, we don't necessarily realize it caused hurt feelings.  For example, during the assignment I mentioned a few days ago, I left a bunch of my stuff around the house we were staying at: sports equipment, clothes, shoes.  Put bluntly, I made a mess.  I was thinking that I was sending the message to any potentially threatening people that the ladies were protected.  JenniAnn interpreted it as me passive aggressively protesting her and our friends' presence.  Now we'd talk about it but back then the misunderstanding caused hurt feelings for a little while.  We don't want that to happen again.

2-26-15, 11:25 AM
JenniAnn

No, we don't want that to happen again!

So... Andrew and I thought it would be good to tell you all our latest rule.  As you all know, Andrew moved to Willowveil shortly after last Easter .  However, he'd still kept his clothes in his old room at Serendipity and would just bring enough over, each week, for that week.  Then sometimes he'd stay overnight there if an assignment really got to him.  Well... as of last Saturday, Andrew is completely moved to Willowveil.  The reason is we both realized that Andrew being a father has changed him a lot and made certain assignments much more difficult.  But we became parents together.  So even though I'm not with him on those assignments, it's not right that he should have to deal with the fallout alone (God was always with him, of course!).  So our new rule is that we don't hide our pain from each other.  Even if we can't fix it or explain it away, at least we can support each other and hold each other when we cry.  And that's important.

2-27-15, 3:31 PM
Gryffindor Max

It always gets me hearing about your early days, Dad and Maja.  It's actually kinda hopeful to know you didn't always have things figured out.  Maybe Rose and I will get there, too, someday! 

As for a rule, Rose and I happened upon one.  You all know we both enjoy our books and comics and movies, etc.  But we also know that sometimes people can immerse themselves in them so much that they don't deal with their problems for real.  So, kind of like with Neela and Eric, we'll set a time.  Maybe we watch Harry Potter for thirty minutes to give ourselves time to calm down and relax but then after that we have to talk about whatever's eating us.  I think it works really well and I hope my bride-to-be agrees!


2-27-15, 6:11 PM
Rose

Bride-to-be agrees! 

3-1-15, 4:12 PM
Peter-the-Rock

Emma and I are waiting for rehearsal to start so figured we'd get to this now.  Great question.

We think our main one is pretty simple: no bailing.  Obviously we both think marriage is really important and are looking forward to that.    But we also think trust and commitment are important even before that huge step.  It would be so much more difficult to talk about tough issues and complicated parts of our pasts if we had to worry that the other might freak out and cut and run.  So we've promised each other not to do that, no matter what.  That being said, of course there are certain relationships and circumstances that would make leaving one's partner not only permissible but also the right thing.  But in healthy, respectful relationships, no bailing seems to us to be a good rule.

3-1-15, 9:52 PM
Caterpillar-Kylie

Rehearsal was great!

And I think this is a great rule!  I appreciate the exception, too.  But now that I'm in a healthy relationship {{{Clay!}}}, I totally agree with this rule and even though neither Clay nor I ever spoke it aloud, we definitely share in it.

And now for our goofy rule: always keep a box of Froot Loops handy.    There have been times since we got together when we've both been disappointed or upset (cruel remark on the street, my mother's sniping about my getting remarried) but then out come the Froot Loops and we enjoy them together and talk about Joshua and suddenly everything seems okay again.  Clay started it and we've kept it up.

3-2-15, 5:43 PM
Sean

Sean here. Kemara and I both agree that the biggest relationship rule we've developed is: Think Before You Speak. With capital letters because it's so important. And we've talked about this a lot - both together and with Fr. Mike and Diana and Zeke. You guys know how I am - I like to joke around and say witty stuff, but not always at the right time. Open mouth, insert foot. So I'm working on that. For Kemara the rule means not automatically saying no when I - or someone else - suggests an activity that might make her uncomfortable. And too, to try not to put herself down...cause I think she's pretty awesome and I don't like to hear that. <G> So that's our rule and how we're using it.

Submission
2-6-15, 10:33 PM
JenniAnn

Hey there, Friends! 

So... it's been an interesting start to the weekend at Willowveil.  Andrew and I had a family wedding to go to in NE (so glad it wasn't snowing!) and left our lovely Violeta at home, babysitting Belle.  After Belle went to sleep, Violeta took to reading some of my old Theology textbooks.  We came home to a lot of questions about "wives, submit to your husbands."  So...  Andrew, Violeta, and I had a nice, long talk but Andrew and I feel like Violeta would be better informed if we opened the question up to all of you.  I know this is a sensitive subject which is partly why we're bringing it up here and not waiting til Bible Study night.  We wanted people to be able to think in the comfort of their own homes.  But we really would appreciate any insights and we'll recap what we discussed, too.  In fact, Andrew will do that shortly.

Thank you!  Hugs!

2-6-15, 11:17 PM
AndrewAOD

This is a big topic and one I've, unfortunately, seen do a lot of damage when it's taken at face value and never really discussed. 

First, JenniAnn and I explained to Violeta how Paul was writing in a particular time and culture and while that doesn't mean we should ignore him, we should take that into account. 

Second, even though we're not married, we shared moments from our own lives when one or the other did have to submit in a sense.  For example, a few years ago I worked a very difficult case in a town that was being terrorized by a serial rapist.  JenniAnn showed up at the house I was staying at, escorted there by Eli (which really should have told me something!).  I didn't want her to stay because I was concerned for her safety.  She held her own and, eventually, I realized that it was God's will she be there.  JenniAnn recognized that but I didn't.  I was wrong.  I'm glad she didn't bend to my will because then we both would have been wrong and my work on my assignment may have suffered without her and others of our friends there.

That incident is one of many reasons unquestioned application of "wives, submit to your husbands" concerns me.  In the situation above the lady ({{{Laja}}}) was absolutely right and following the will of God.  The fellow (me) was not. 

The full sentence in Ephesians is: "Wives, submit yourselves to your own husbands as you do to the Lord."

JenniAnn (who is reading over my shoulder as I type this) and I believe that "as you do to the Lord" is key.  We submit (hopefully) to God because He is right and good.  If a husband ceases to be on the side of rightness and goodness, we believe he forfeits any claim he may have to his wife following along with his will.  And if there's a disagreement and the lady is on the side of rightness and goodness... it behooves us as gentlemen to follow her will.  None of us are God.  None of us know who God will impart His wisdom and guidance to.  Automatically assuming either the man or the woman is going to be right is bound to lead to God's guidance being pushed aside in favor of unquestioned obedience to a human's (or even an angel's) interpretation of a couple lines in the Bible. 

So that's what we told Violeta.  Anyone else?


2-7-15, 7:14 AM
Caterpillar-Kylie

In the church I grew up in, no one really questioned the meaning or application of those passages.  I wish they had... because then I would have questioned, too.  Don't get me wrong.  I knew in my heart of hearts that Jett's abuse was wrong.  But I think if I hadn't believed wholeheartedly that I was supposed to submit to my husband then I think I would have recognized some of the little things that led up to that as warning signs. 

I wonder sometimes if Paul's advice may have come from the fact that men were more educated in terms of Scripture.  So in a marriage back then maybe it was all but a given that the husband knew the Gospels better and could speak to Joshua's teachings better.  That's sad to think about but, if that was the case, it makes some sense.  But nowadays, I can get a Bible as easily as a man can.  And I do read it and study it a lot.  So I think I should speak up, too.

I'm glad you listened to JenniAnn, Andrew.    And seeing the way you two interact makes me really happy.  I hope this doesn't come out the wrong way but if ever there was anyone who would be able to pull rank with their partner, so to speak, it would be you, Andrew.  You've lived a lot longer and seen a lot more than JenniAnn.  But you don't.  You truly care about her input and we could all see how proud you make Joshua so I have to believe that's how he intends relationships to be: people consulting each other, caring deeply for each other (infinitely more than they care about power) and recognizing His will even if it's not their will.

I do like the Joshua emoticon, Caleb. 


2-7-15, 8:23 AM
JenniAnn

Andrew is pretty great.  I think I'll keep him around.    {{{Andrew}}}

Kylie, I'm glad we make you happy.  We feel the same way about you and Clay! 

That's a good point about the availability of education.  And I think this is really a case of remembering the spirit of the words.  I mean Paul also wrote 1 Cor. 13.  No one who wrote that could possibly support some of the behavior people have excused and condoned in the name of "wives submit." 

2-7-15, 12:51 PM
Zeke

Oooh boy...  That can be a tough one.  I'll admit that at the beginning of my married life, I believed the man was the head of the household and his word was the final one.  Thankfully, Diana and I were a pretty mild-mannered pair.  We really didn't disagree much.  And then this happened...

Hailey and Sy were just itty bitty things which should tell you how long ago this was.  I was still working as a stockbroker and I had this buddy from work.  We'd go bowling occasionally to unwind.  Well, one day he overindulged at the bar there at the bowling alley and said something crass to me that I did not take kindly to.  I just walked out, not saying a word to him.  By the time I got home, I was fuming.  Diana could tell right off but she kept her distance, hoping I would cool down.  Finally, after dinner, I told her what had happened and I told her that I was going to go over to his house and give him a piece of my mind and if he didn't apologize...  Well, I'm ashamed to say I was going to turn our disagreement physical.  Diana forbid me to leave the house.  I did not take kindly to that!  We fought.  First time we ever yelled that much at each other.  And, yes, I did bring up that passage.  Diana just left the room.  We didn't say another word to each other that night.  I was so exhausted and upset that I didn't leave the house.  I slept on the couch.  First time for that, too.

The next day at work, my buddy approached me and asked me to take lunch with him.  Even though I didn't want to, I agreed.  He apologized and he explained to me that he and his wife had been trying to have a baby and had, at last, gotten pregnant.  But they'd lost the baby a few days before.  He also asked me to thank Diana for spending so long on the phone with his wife, consoling her. 

I felt about an inch tall.

Of course, I accepted my buddy's apology and we prayed together.  When I got home, I apologized to Diana.  She told me that the wife had begged her not to tell me, at least not yet, about the baby because my buddy didn't want to talk about it at work or with anyone from work and she was afraid I would let it slip (and I probably would have accidentally).  And, when we'd been arguing, Diana had tried to warn me as best she could without breaking her word.  She kept saying "Zeke, you don't know what's going on in that man's life."  She was right.  I didn't.  To this day, I sometimes think about how rotten I would have felt had I raised hell with my buddy and later found out what he was going through.  And I thank God that I have a wife who wouldn't back down and kept me from doing something awful.

In a marriage, it's important that both people treat each other with love and respect and be open to the truth and guidance that God offers through them.  It's hard to do that when you're so sure of your own rightness.    


2-8-15, 6:33 PM
Kemara

Sean and I talked about this, and we both agree that our families/churches treated this verse as something Paul was saying from and about his own time and place. Times are different now with different ideas of equality.

Personally - and obviously this is a theory we'll have to test once we're married - I think that it's not submission that's required in a marriage, but compromise. Many times since we've been dating Sean has had interesting ideas for things we can do...but they might involve large crowds of people or other situations I'm not entirely comfortable with. But, I'm working on being more outgoing, so unless I'm really, really not in the mood, I'll go along. And Sean wants me to point out that I usually enjoy myself - which is true. Sometimes I suggest something else we can do later to balance things out like a visit to a museum or botanical gardens.

Sean here.....Kemara's right about compromise, but I also think discussion is a big facet of any partnership. And I see this in my own parents' marriage. They're always talking to each other. Dad usually doesn't have to guess how mom's feeling because she lets him know. And he knows he can admit when he's upset and that he doesn't have to be strong in front of her. That last is something I'm working on myself...thanks to Joshua's example. We haven't had a big fight like you mentioned, Zeke, so again, we haven't had a chance to test these ideas. Here's hoping they'll hold up!

2-8-15, 7:42 PM
JenniAnn

Belle's got a bit of a cold so... she's finally napping but I may need to end this abruptly if she gets up.  Poor love. 

Kemara and Sean, I think you both bring up great points and, Zeke, thanks for sharing your story.  I think it's great that you were able to develop your beliefs and not just get stuck in a certain way of being.  You and Diana are an inspiration to all of us and you've made an awesome foundation for your kids!

Now it's my turn to fess up...  When I was younger (but still old enough that I should have known better), I used to constantly get on Andrew's case about being so reticent.  And he'll admit that sometimes he took that to an unhealthy level and I'm so, so proud of him for making so much progress there.  Love the lovely angel...

Anyway, I used to basically demand that he open up when I could tell that a case had rattled him.  Because I was just so sure my talk therapy focused Psychology undergrad classes were right.  And, selfishly, I thought it would bring me closer to him.  But Andrew didn't want to talk about it so then I'd just get angry at him.

I realize now what a difficult, unwinnable position I put him in.  Andrew just wanted to protect me.  And it would have hurt him worse to tell me and see the pain it caused me.  It wouldn't have helped him at all.  And it's not like I could have done anything about it except be with him and hold him... something I should have been doing regardless because I loved him.  Now that I'm older and at least somewhat less naive, he does tell me more when he feels like talking about it would help him.  But I understand that sometimes it's best for him to just take that up with Joshua and the Father.

So I think it's important for both parties in a relationship to be able to realize they're not actually infallible.  And

Gotta go.  Belle woke up.  Andrew has her but baby girl needs some Mama and Daddy cuddling, I think.


2-10-15, 4:38 PM
EmmaMM

First, I hope Belle is feeling better!  Poor baby!  But I'm sure she's getting lots of TLC from her Mama and Daddy!

As for the submission issue, I'm really glad Violeta has people she feels comfortable discussing these sorts of things with.  That sort of trusted adult confidante role was definitely lacking for me growing up. 

I'm not anything even close to a Biblical scholar so I can't really say much more about the context beyond what Joshua told us all about life back then.  But I can say this: It means a lot to me that Joshua repeatedly asked all of us, male and female, for our views and wishes while he was here.  He seemed to genuinely enjoying hearing about what we thought and wanted.  And if God Himself values what we have to say then I think we're meant to value each other's input, too.

I can't say that I ever heard much about submitting growing up.  That verse didn't come up much.  But when I was at church or school, I did sometimes feel like I was second-class just because I was a girl.  And I did feel like there were double standards.  Boys could be wild, girls had to be pure.  Girls had to think about how their actions might tempt boys.  I never heard anything said to boys about altering their dress or behavior.

While I feel very, very blessed, I guess it is kind of sad that it took Peter and Joshua and Maryam, with help from all of you, to basically "deprogram" me because I bought into a lot of that.

Blizzard! Plans
1-25-15, 8:12 PM
EmmaMM

Peter and I just wanted to recap some conversations we've all been having in bits and pieces.

We're not letting a little (okay, a lot) of snow get in the way of rehearsals! If anyone would like, you're welcome to camp out here at St. Genesius' during the storm. Just bring a sleeping bag! Of course, we understand that those who choose to stay home probably won't be able to get there in the evenings and that's not a problem. Just stay safe!

Andrew and JenniAnn are more than happy to put anyone up if you'd prefer that (they've also volunteered use of the kitchens and showers at Willowveil/Serendipity for anyone staying at St. G's). Also, for anyone who thinks they absolutely will have to report to work on Tuesday or Wednesday and are worried about getting there, please contact Vincent. He's offered to let anyone who needs/wants to stay a safe place Below. Quite likely, there's a Tunnel entrance that would get you close to your work place without having to travel on trecherous streets.

Oh and Beth and Mick are offering tours of L.A. for the sun and warmth deprived. 

Finally, the threat of the weather has meant larger than usual crowds at True Light so Arthur would welcome any extra help.

We think that's it... Stay warm, friends!

1-27-15, 5:33 PM
Peter-the-Rock

So... that ended up being anti-climatic.  But it's been fun, hasn't it?  I guess it's back to normal tomorrow, though.  Thanks to everyone who hung out at St. G's and to the Tunnel folk and Dyelanders!

Arthur, how are things at True Light?

1-28-15, 6:16 AM
Arthur-A-Stor

We nearly reached capacity so that was a bit of a trial but, thanks to all the extra help, we managed!  It's great to have so many people to count on!  Stay warm, everyone!


1-26-15, 6:32 AM
Sean

Well, I'll be one of those camping out for sure! Haven't heard yet if I'll need to go in to work, but I'd rather hang out with all of you than be trapped alone in my apartment. Especially if my lovely fiance isn't there to keep my company.

1-26-15, 8:01 AM
ShaneWhoTeaches

Just curious... have you considered moving to Dyeland, Sean?  Just seems to make sense.  I'm sure Andrew and JenniAnn could put you up before the wedding.  Hi, Andrew and JenniAnn! 

1-26-15, 9:17 AM
AndrewAOD

Hi, Shane.    Sean, you'd definitely be welcome!  I'm writing this on behalf of JenniAnn, too.  She's a little busy Violeta right now.

1-26-15, 12:14 PM
Sean

I've thought about it, sure. It would be great! But Kemara and I haven't discussed it....I guess we're about to. And that's totally cool! I'm sure everyone's been wondering the same thing, Shane. 

I won't assume to speak for Kemara - I know what that gets you! - but yes, it does make sense. I'm in Dyeland far more than I'm at my own place. Peter and Emma can testify since they've seen it - Hey, neighbors! - my place is pretty much a dumping ground for CDs, music scores and recording equipment with few empty pizza boxes for decoration.

Plus, it would be easier for me to start moving some of my stuff to Kemara's place if I was already close by. 

I think we could make it work, but I'll go with whatever Kemara wants to do.

1-26-15, 2:22 PM
Kemara

Sean (and everyone), I've thought about it too. Of course I'd love to have you closer! I didn't mention it because I worried that maybe it would be too much temptation ::blushes:: Sometimes this still feels so new, and I'm not sure what's OK. Peter and Emma, you seem to be able to things work being so close all the time: I feel a little silly worrying about such a minor step, but I'm willing to give it a try.

But only if you Willowveil folks really think you can put up with Sean. Sometimes it's a struggle, I admit. ::Sean::

1-26-15, 2:54 PM
JenniAnn

I think everyone needs to find what works for them, Kemara, and it's not always obvious... no matter the nature of one's relationship.  So don't feel silly or embarrassed!

And us Willowveil folks would be happy to welcome Sean!  We'll go over room possibilities when Andrew and I get to St. G's tonight!

1-29-15, 6:54 AM
Sean

Hey gang! Would anyone mind coming out on Saturday to help move some of my stuff to Willowveil? I've got my truck for the big stuff - JenniAnn says there's a place I can store my sound equipment until we think of what to do with it - But I'd really like to get as much as possible done in one day. I know not many people have cars, but if you can just come over and help pack, I promise I'll feed you!

Thanks again for the invite JenniAnn, Andrew and everyone else. Especially, Kemara...Your courage amazes me every day. Love you.

1-31-15, 11:23 PM
Clay-on-the-farm

Glad we got you moved, Sean!  Thanks for the pizza.  I hope your first night in your new digs is a good one!


50 Shades of Blech
1-25-15, 9:52 AM

CalebtheCowboy

So am I the only one who is skeeved out by the 50 Shades trailer?

Just asking...

1-25-15, 3:19 PM
CalebtheCowboy

On a lighter note... I made a Joshua emoticon!  Sadly, I couldn't capture his birthmark or the gold in his eyes.  But it works, I think. 
 

1-25-15, 9:57 PM
JenniAnn


Aww!  That's awesome, Caleb!  {{{Joshua}}} 


1-25-15, 12:52 PM
Kemara


Let's go see 'Old Fashioned' instead! Even if the acting isn't up to par, anything has to be better than *that*!


1-25-15, 1:31 PM
Sean

Yeah, but I read a review and the lead guy thinks that he shouldn't be in the same room alone with an unmarried woman. Really hoping you don't think that's a good idea!


1-25-15, 2:46 PM
Zeke


Sounds good!  I think something called "Old Fashioned" is more my speed.  I had to have my lovely wife fill me in on this 50 Shades stuff.  Diana ain't buying it.  She's so cute when her nose scrunches up like that!

Sean, I agree that's extreme.  How would a fella get to know a lady if other people were always around?  


1-25-15, 3:17 PM
Diana

And how would a lady get to know things about her betrothed... like that Disney movies make him cry?    {{{Zeke}}} 

As for the other subject... some of my fellow teachers read it and plan to see the movie but, like Zeke said, I'm not having it.  Blessedly, none of the kids are interested, either. 

I just don't get it.  There are so many mixed messages in this society sometimes!  If any man or woman raised a hand to one of my babies...  And yet here, with this book/movie, we're supposed to find violence to be what?  Sexy?  Attractive?  No, no, no. 


1-25-15, 3:22 PM
Caterpillar-Kylie


I don't get it, either!  And I wish you were my Mom, Diana. 

Love you all! 

1-25-15, 11:53 AM
EmmaMM


NO! {{{Violeta}}} 


1-25-15, 9:55 AM
LambMommy


What's that about?  Andrew and JenniAnn get weird looks whenever I ask.


1-25-15, 10:05AM
JenniAnn

Uh oh...  ANDREW!  Ummm...

1-25-15, 10:12 AM
CalebtheCowboy

Oops...  Sorry.  

1-25-15, 10:15 AM
AndrewAOD


No problem, Caleb.  

Violeta, let's go talk in the stable.  JenniAnn will be there, too.

1-26-15, 3:23 PM
LambMommy

Hi. I just wanted to check back in and let everyone know that I'm fine. I mean I still don't get why anyone would think that was cool or romantic or whatever. And I really do realize that there's a lot I don't get but that just seems especially ungettable. And I just don't understand how... I don't know how to say what I want to say.

Like pretend Mary and Silly are people. What if Mary told me that Silly hit her but it was because that was fun for them but what if some other time Silly hit her to be mean? How would she know the difference? How would she know that she needed to get away? Or what if they had babies and the kids started to think it was okay to hit people for fun? (FYI: Silly would never actually hit anyone!)

I just know that I don't ever, ever, ever want to see that movie or read that book. But Andrew and JenniAnn assured me that will never be necessary and then last night we had ice cream sundaes and watched "You've Got Mail." That's my kind of movie! Of course, it would have been better with Hugh Jackman in it, too. ;-)

1-26-15, 4:12 PM
Kemara


I haven't read the book in question, nor have I gone through anything like what Emma and Kylie have ::HUGS::...but I read a lot of stuff as a kid/pre-teen that was too way adult for me. My parents didn't censor my reading *at all*. Add to that working in journalism, and I lost my emotional/mental innocence a long time ago. Hold on to yours as long as you can, Violeta. I think Andrew, JenniAnn and Joshua are doing a great job helping you with that!
1-26-15, 2:58 PM
JenniAnn

Listen to Kemara, hon.  We all love you just the way you are!